Motorcyclists also want to "share" bike lanes
Cyclists fuming over biker lane-share push July 22, 2009 couriermail
First e-bikes, now full motorcycles!
I knew that the e-bikes were the thin edge of the wedge!
I say that it's high time to get the dangerous motorists off the road so that Motorcycles (gas or electric) can stay on the road and out of the bike lanes, and off of the paths.
meh. that's Australia. Will never happen here.
I have heard many in motorcycling groups talking about it, and we've already seen motorcycles simply use bike lanes.
Anthony you are quoting old 2007/07/17 old data for fear mongering purposes. You are part of the reason Ontario is so far behind the rest of Canada and the world. If you are going to use data in a defense please use up to date data please and not antiquated archived data please.
"Anthony you are quoting old 2007/07/17 old data for fear mongering purposes. You are part of the reason Ontario is so far behind the rest of Canada and the world. If you are going to use data in a defense please use up to date data please and not antiquated archived data please."
The original post points to absolutely up-to-date issues in Australia. As for the "old data", it's not data, its another blog post from a couple of years ago. If it was a problem then, I bet it's more of a problem now, what with e-bikes. Where's your data that it's no longer a problem, eh?
But someone posting anonymously as "Unbiased poster" is probably an ax-grinding troll anyway.
OMG...you guys are incredibly transparent.
Motorcyclists want to use bike-lanes also.
Cyclists don't want that, they didn't even want e-scooters. Really those cyclists are just whiners.
Further, seeing as it's a matter of life or death for the motorcyclists - just like it was for the e-scooter riders - i think we should welcome them in.
The more people using the bike lanes, the more lanes we can get and the better it will be!
RIGHT ON and I want to know.. when will TCU STOP their madness of banning motorcycles from bike lanes and realize that motorcycles in bike-lanes is the future and really the only way to grow cycling in Ontario?
the preceding was sarcasm, in case you couldn't tell.
If cyclists were afforded the respect they deserve we wouldn't need any lanes.
good lord, can you imagine the kind of road rage that would start up in a place like toronto? Having "shared" a bike lane with a number of motor scooters over the years, I can outright say I'd quit cycling in the city if that ever ended up becoming legal.
Maybe when you bike whinners start paying a fair share of road tax you can have an opinion. until then SHUT UP and stay off MY road
Seymore, you said it. Two wheelers of all sorts don't get the respect on the roads that they are entitled to. If we did, we wouldn't need lanes on most streets... but also Toronto is so full of those 200 year old streetcar menaces that those streets are actually dangerous even when there isn't another vehicle on them.
I have to say that when I started riding an eScooter I started getting more respect from cars and I feel less likely to take another shoulder-separating streetcar track spill, like the one that ended my bicycle riding days.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-...
(This site is addictive.)
I have been bicycling in T.O. as often as I can. I was born there. I have witnessed this happen to me on several occasions, recently.
This time a moped operator had swerve in front of the bicycle lane, in front of me without signalling. So, they can get away from the line up of vehicles.
Another time, it was a car who swerve in front of the bicycle lane...A CAR! just so they can get to turn into a street to park. It was one more blocks away, the whole way they were on the lane.
I have cars tail gate me on an empty road..Bloor Street to be exact! Purposefully! They had all the space to drive at, but they had to be on my tail.
I respect the road and follow the rules and use common sense when I share the roads with other vehicles. Such as signalling to vehicles that I will be cutting them off due to unexpected circumstances. Or not passing a truck, because of there blind spot. Not even listening to my music when I bicycle... I need my ears to beware of whats happening around me. Effing dangerous! to be listening to music. ( I once used my earphones and it was a huge barrier for me to beaware of my surroundings)
I just hope that the people who operate their electric or motor bicycle, that they realize that theres kids who uses the bicycle lane, theres recreational bicyclist, theres road bicycles, theres skateboarders. All with a lower speed. There should be a law for this, and this rule should be mandatory when taking the motorcycel drivers license.
I like your comment. But the whole point of cycling is to reduce the use of gasoline, maximize capacity of roads by riding smaller objects, promote fitness and a healthy lifestyle in this city.
I ran into a moped operator, they were getting way to full of it, they swerve from road traffic, into bikes lane, as if they can do whatever they want.
I'm sure that car operators are just as furious as cyclists.
I'm sure those who operate a motorcycle wants to ride with comfort and not have to be lowering their speed when they reach a recreational cyclists.
Thats one benefit of riding a bicycle, its free! I have saved alot of money from it. Who needs a car, paying insurance, paying for gasoline, paying for repairs. Its a hassle. Unless you're a die hard car enthusiasts.
FAIL.
You remind me of every ignorant motorist that cuts me off, gives me the finger or hurls insults my way.
Please feel free to suck on some of that exhaust you so freely and generously pump out for all to breathe.
Dear Mr. Car Jerk,
Since when were the roads privatized? Is there some user fee system in place that I don't know about? Is everyone who doesn't own a car not allowed to use the roads? Does that go for children, transit users, pedestrians, and cyclists? As far as I know the roads are public and paid for through our municipal taxes. Check the facts before you complain. You may find that in fact all citizens who don't own cars subsidize you drivers!
I can sympathize that you figure you are paying exorbitant prices to drive. That is true. The solution? Sell your car. We are not going to willingly continue to subsidize you for your privilege. It just so happens that private automobiles are very inefficient and uneconomical. With high gas prices we are just starting to realize that this is not sustainable. But since people are tied to their cars with many not having an alternative, we are having a hard time breaking people of the habit. But it's not our fault that you're having a hard time paying the bills.
Ps. yes, I'm feeding the troll. How could I not?
While I do not agree with "Had enough" the "facts" used to respond are rather weak. While it appears the motorist in the example uses the road three times more often than the cyclist, I think once you factor in secondary uses the differences will be almost negligible. Every item in your home got there by a road.
Consider that both the driver and cyclist buy 5 items each year that are produced in China, shipped to Vancouver's port and then driven to Toronto. The road distance portion is just over 2 500 miles. So now the total use for the driver and cyclist is 22500 and 15500 miles respectively. The driver only uses the roads 45% more than the cyclist. Once you buy more than 5 items that are produced outside of North America the difference between the two in the example approach zero.
The author of the example tries to get away with this weak argument by making references to "local" roads. This is somewhat deceptive living in a global marketplace. In the end to me it seems that no one has a superior position for their argument.
I thought e-bikes were the same as bicycles...
t_t
Darren wrote:
"Consider that both the driver and cyclist buy 5 items each year that are produced in China, shipped to Vancouver's port and then driven to Toronto."
What really happens to most such goods is that they travel on a train from BC to somewhere like the train/truck intermodal facility in Vaughan. The actual distance travelled on a truck is very short.
E-Bikes both styles are not bicycles. E-Bikes are "E-Bikes" or "Power Assisted Bicycles" in the same classification as bicycles. Just because they are in the same classification does not make them the same. Try reading up the regulations on the MTO website before posting please. A little knowledge goes a long way.
There are some good reasons it was restricted to local or municipal roads:
We only need to account for the goods and services traveling within the municipal boundaries. Even then business taxes will help take cover the costs of that (which is then incorporated in their prices). But a substantial portion of road expenses go towards expanding the roadway to accommodate greater commuter traffic.
Litman says:
Darren, I think you'd need to provide a better analysis of the amount of local road that is being used to transport goods and the amount for automobile commuting (plus the amount of goods being transported in Toronto that are being used to keep these private automobiles operating: gasoline, tires, parts, a portion of the pavement). Not easy. I'm guessing you'd find that car commuting takes a substantial portion, if not the majority of the costs of road upkeep (not including all the other costs car commuting imposes).
I might buy the argument if we were about to build a new community and transportation infrastructure that goes with it. Yet we are talking about a road system and end user payer scheme that is already in place. Poorly designed and disproportionate. I think we are discussing the degree of the latter.
As far as Toronto is concerned, we have repeatedly been told that there is no more space to put in new roads. Money is spent to try to make them more efficient but there are no new roads - no argument from me that this is done very poorly. Outside of Toronto they are trying to expand the highways. I think the key is to keep business local.
You claim that highways are paid through gas and registration fees? The CAA pegged the amount coming from these sources at around 3%.
http://www.caa.ca/mini%20sites/gasprice/doing.html
Yet then you claim most of it comes from general taxation?
Just because it is "easier" to base these assessments on municipal taxes does not make them anymore valid or credible. I do think they are valid and credible as part of the larger picture, used as they are in Litman's position they produce unbelievable results. If we followed this rationale the whole "buy local" push is dismissed. Reducing one mile of travel in a country that has lax environmental laws is like reducing several miles in North America. And no I am not saying that makes it anymore valid, rather that global cost also needs to be considered.
The end users, you and I, pay any costs associated with bringing any good to market. No business I know of swallows those costs.
The argument also ignores quantum. If you doubled the number of people riding bikes with those gave up their cars to do so, this would pale in comparison if you asked every driver to replace 5% of the goods they buy with local fare.
In short maybe a better question would be, if in Litman's example if the driver became a cyclist would they see an improvement in their quality of life that would correspond to the degrees suggested? It would probably decrease.
I find these arguments hard to follow. It is sort of like telling low-income people not to shop at certain big box stores because of their practices. So they don't eat.
I am for keeping things local and cycling is one of the cheaper ways of doing it. Yet to raise people's expectations with these magnitudes of numbers is only inviting for backlash down the road.
I have been surfing TO pavements for most of ten years and well over 10,000kms... Sidewalks and roads. On tiny 60lb stand-up kick scooters w/400W of electric power-assist. Vehicles that are manufactuctured in the millions every year and are legal and are in common use in other jurisdictions eg California and Oregon...
I pains me to read all of the negativity about the electric motor-assisted bicycles.
These are early daze for the re-introduction of the electric vehicle in North America. In Toronto, many Canadians have been buying the made-in-China scooter-style "ebikes" that fit within the legal definition of ebike, while most of the rest of the world eg the EU has taken to ebikes that look more like the "classic" open-frame pedal bike, with motor and batteries added.
I ask Canadians to cut the current crop of "ebikers" some slack... They (most of them) are noobs to the two wheeled life. With time most will learn about the basic laws of physics where a lighter vehicle provides more range and better acceleration and braking than a heavier vehicle (given a 500W limit.) There is nothing like driving an electric vehicle (w/a finite amount of energy stored onboard in chemical batteries) to drive this point home... with time and experience...
Every vehicle that does not "benefit" from air bags and seat belts and crush zones makes our streets safer for the rest of us, as drivers are more circumspect about their own safety...
Try and look beyond the narrow perspective of "legalities"... Most of this "framework" is just backward.
tks
|okk
As a motorcyclist, I get angry when I see other motorcyclists/scooterists using the bike lane. It wasn't made for us. However, you'll get MUCH more sympathy from people like me when more of your bicycling brethren CONSISTENTLY use helmets and proper lighting on front and back, stop zigzagging through and around traffic stopped at a light, and stop zooming right through red lights! Nothing bothers me more than someone demanding we non-bicyclists follow the rules and laws of the road as they zoom bike-messenger-like around me while wearing no helmet, having no lights on their bike, and slipping through a gap in opposing traffic by riding through a red light. You want us to play fair and respect you? Make your more selfish brothers and sisters do the same! Put your wheels where your mouth is.