Seen today: e-scooter on playground path

They need to be properly categorized as either a power assisted bicycle or as a moped, and then be forced to follow the rules of whichever category. Right now, they're somewhere in between, which makes them too dangerous for the rule sets of either.

Herb,

I think an un-assisted cyclist would pose the same amount of danger if riding recklessly through Trinity Bellwoods Park. Same with the one you saw on the sidwalk. There are already "limits on where they can ride", same as with regular bikes.

I find the scooter-style e-bikes to be ugly, silly-looking, and not as practical as a regular bicycle (or regular bike with electric assist), but I don't think they're as dangerous as what people make them out to be. The danger is in how they are operated, power assisted or not.

Currently bicycles with small wheels are exempt from the bylaw that prohibits riding on the sidewalk. Perhaps there should be an exception to the exemption to specifically disallow power-assisted bicycles from riding on the sidewalk. Since the purpose behind the original exemption with small wheels is for children.

Vic

Remember a E-Bike can weigh around 150 lbs, the rider is set in a more stable position (sitting upright with feet flat on the floor) and the front of it is solid and broad, so the energy exchange in an collision would be transferred more directly to the thing it hits.

In a bicycle collision, the weight of the bike is minimal by comparison, and the rider is often carried past the collision spot by momentum. The momentum of a rider in an e-bike collision is far more likely to add driectly to the force at impact, since the design of the E-Bike will keep the rider (and their kinetic energy) in place.

Ok os I have heard stories of this and that. I agree, e-bikes, e-scooters, pedal assisted whatevers deserve a place in our city. For years I have paitently waited for cyclist and driver to awake into a compassionate awareness of each other...
E-bike bikes, pedestrians, drivers the onus is on us. We are the operators, we are the individuals responsible for our own safety and that of those around us. I have been riding in this city for near two decades. I will admit to using sidewalks, pathways, back alleys and any other ridable surface in my attempt to traverse this wonderfully horrific frenetic place we call home. I have done so for pleasure and for money. In my years of riding I have had my share of spills and thrills, to be sure. I have had a seemingly infinite number of close calls and near misses. I have been assaulted, arrested, threatened. I have had trucks nudge me, I have had cabs swerve at me, old lady''s swear at me...
I have even permanently disfigured and near killed a nice woman running across the street.
Since the e-scooters have hit the streets how many of them have hit us? How many have been involved in a fatality of any kind. The truth is any means of transport comes with its own set of risks and benefits. It is obvious to me which vehicles represent the bottom end of that scale. As a true hypocrite, I am the proud owner of an SUV, an older one at that! When I do happen to find myself behind the wheel, my wheels are headed out of town, pulling a trailer full o stuff, with my four children. Funny that the V8 350 is more efficient than most of the so called eco cars. It does more work with less fuel. Do I drive it to work? no. Do I drive it downtown. Sometimes, with all our bikes on board... The point is appropriate, ethical use. The bike, I use whenever and for whatever I choose, recreational driving, no. Recreational cycling, yes please!
E-bikes and e- everything are here, just as the scourge of cycling took the world like wild fire and never stooped burning, the new generation of electric bikes trikes and cars will need more than every to be operated in a safe, consistent and compassionate way. As time goes on I hope to see more and more emission free vehicles and riders on our streets, and less and less pollution spewing people killers.
As the next wave of electric vehicles hit the streets
At least they may not have to choke on the emissions of our automotive addiction.

electrorocket

I am not against e-bikes, they are a great way to get around the city. What troubles me is that people are classifying them in the same manner as a bicycle (or power assisted bicycle). The difference between the two is obvious and I want appropriate considerations by the respective regulatory bodies involved.

A power assisted bicycle is a bicycle
An e-bike is a limited power scooter

I wonder if we won’t be asking ourselves why e-bikes are permitted everywhere bikes are after a younger rider is seriously injured in a collision with one on a bike path - that's data I could do without.

e-bikes have far more in common with regular bicyles than a Hummer has with a Toyota Corolla. Yet those two cars manage to share the road just fine.

They take the same space, travel the same speed, offer no protection - why not allow them to ride on bike lanes?

Using the same arguments, you could say that bikes have no business being on multi-purpose paths in the park because they out weigh and can be dangerous in a collision with a pedestrian.

It is true. Accidents happen, no matter how skilled, safe, aware ect I am, accidents will happen.

Bikes, cars people all moving, mostly self absorbed, at some point it will happen. I agree, an impact with a scooter will cause considerably more damage that a similar collision with a bike.
Cars are the killers. the data is in. Less cars, less death.

Less cars more e bikes, less smog, less death.

Where are the light weight e cars and trikes?

on the way.....

Where have YOU been? They already are under the bike laws.

Sorry - Not a valid comparison:

All vehicles have seat belts, bumpers and airbags, and there is mandatory crash testing for all autos before being allowed on our roads.

E-Bikes have been released without any similar measures or considerations and anyone over 15 years old can ride one on a bike path.

The fact that I need to explain this is ridiculous.

Living in Parkdale I see cyclists on the sidewalks etc all the time.

Yet BOOYA! let a scooter or e-assist break the same laws and somehow it's just so much worse even though they can't go as fast as a cyclist.

I "float" through the sidewalk at the schoolyard right now due to construction problems in Parkdale. I go very slowly but it would be physically impossible for me to push my trike with a big pile of groceries through there. Yet I see cyclists whizzing past me all the time.

We aren't all complete idiots.

The real reason we get all weirded out is because cyclists breaking the law is so common we barely take notice unless they are right in front of us. E-scooters are less common and thus, more noticeable when they do something we perceive as dangerous or unlawful or "not right".

And how often have I seen cyclists whizzing past children on the lakeshore bike paths?

The hypocrisy of this debate is mind-numbing.

I can't WHIZZ anywhere--I only go 12mph. Scooters are limited in speed. Cyclists are not. And I can assure you that I did a great deal faster on downhills than 30mph on a regular bike than what scooters are stuck with.

Bicycle
http://earth911.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/bicycle-300...

Power Assist Bicycle
http://www.thedailygreen.com/cm/thedailygreen/images/urban...

E-Bike
http://www.insideview.ie/photos/sightings/madcat_commuter_...

All this blather from the cycling community piffs me off. If it's not one complaint about e-scooters and e-bikes--it's another.

Do you want clean air or not? At least we're TRYING to find alternative transportation.

Do you want people to use cargo e-scooters and bikes that are less dangerous or do you think that only strong physical specimens without any disabilities or mobility problems should be allowed to cycle in whatever ways they can?

Oh but I forgot...

Some of you just want us all to get heavyweight mobility scooters so we can degenerate slowly without clogging up the roads or "bothering" you.

Perhaps we should all just buy cars? Then those of you all b*tching can just complain about THAT.

You know, I read all this crap here yet when I'm on the road, everyone smiles, waves and thinks it's a great idea. People ask me all the time, "How much? Where did you get it? That's just perfect! WOW look at all the stuff you can haul!"

I just don't "get" it.

Get off your elitist thinking some of you cyclists--we're on the same side.

Yes and a 10 year old can do 55mph down the Coxwell hill on a bike--BY LAW.

So your point is????

If I understand correctly--they are not allowed on sidewalks by law since all e-assist scooters/bikes/trike are considered adult bikes by law.

Other than parking or sort of push cruising [for example to get inside a building where someone lives--I never see them there. However I've dodged plenty of bikes.

I researched ALL the possibilities before I purchased.

You have no logical point to make here. E-Bikes and regular bikes actually go faster than scooters are legally designed to go.

What bugs YOU is aesthetics. What they look like. Well aesthetics is NOT an intelligent way to make judgments on mobility devices--function is.

Try this on for size in your debate:

I want to see EVERY VEHICLE that can go faster than 30mph regardless of design licensed by law or else pulled off the road.

That wouldn't be me on my e-trike, or my e-scooter driving neighbours but I bet it would be the majority of cyclists.

So somehow, how splattered the rider by a collision gets makes a difference? And this means "splatter power" somehow lends legitimacy to your argument?

In that case, get all the cars off the road since they have the greatest "splatter power" without harming themselves, of all.

NOBODY belongs on the sidewalk [except kids on small tricycles] that is using a cycle of any sort unless they are "walking" it.

A cyclist doing 60 on the sidewalk [and I've seen it] is just as dangerous as a scooter doing 30--more so, possibly.

Using lawbreakers as an example of why something should not exist is not a legitimate argument. It's a straw man tactic.

It's the prejudice against "new". Change is difficult. It's not based in logic. It's based in bias.

And the car community, never mind the cycling community has to come to grips with it.

I love my trike. I'm just starting to get a real handle on what it will do.

Folks are intrigued by it. I make the most of it with my pirate flags, honka horn etc. It gets people interested that there might actually be a way they can do their errands and such without a car.

How much better would the air be if people were using the e-scooter trikes to haul and e-scooters if they cannot, or will not cycle?

I know folks that own both and use both for different reasons.

E-Bikes are allowed on a Bike Path - that is my point of contention; I don't have a problem with them on Roads.

Esthetics is not the issue - it is a matter of physics - see Physics 101 post above.

Why shouldn't they be allowed on a bike path? Because YOU don't like it?

If you want to talk about WEIGHT--what about cargo biking? I'm 100lbs + 145 body weight + 100 lbs of groceries on a trike. So, by your estimation, because of weight and because my trike isn't as "tippy" I'm more dangerous than some speed demon doing 60mph on a skinny lightweight racing bike?

Just because if he flies off at that rate and hits me--like WHAT? A flying projectile isn't dangerous?

And since when with some idiots, did it matter if they are going to splatter? Have you seen some of these fools that don't care about their own safety and endanger everyone else?

Let's kick off all the moms hauling two kids in the back because their bike is ungainly and has weight!

How do you figure that?

Your so-called physics lesson is illogical for precisely the reasons I've pointed out over and over.

Not once have you pointed to a single statistic that says e-scooters are more dangerous than bikes in any way, shape or form. In fact, everything I've read states, less accidents per capita.

Until then, there's absolutely no logic to your blind prejudices.

What additional safety measures should an e-bike have, Seymour?

You want to categorize them in the same class as motorcycles yet they have nowhere the same speed or weight. They are much closer to regular bicycles since the size is the same and they are just as easy to pass in a bike lane.

55 mph? - are these Lance Armstrong’s kids?...Come on Trikester

I'm pretty sure the posted speed limit on Coxwell is 50km/h, and I'm also pretty sure most 10 year olds won’t be speeding down an arterial road unless their parents have taken leave of their senses.

That said I'd rather be in a collision with someone on a bike (or power assist bike) than a 150 pound e-bike with a metal frame and fibre glass body.

So - that's my point. What was yours?

I compare E-Bikes to Scooters, the same was I would compare a Smart Car to a Toyota Corolla.

An E-Bike is actually a motorized vehicle when you think about it, and yet they are allowed to be operated along any of the city's Bike Paths that run through our parks and recreation areas.

The only safety measure I would like to have is that they be excluded from using Bike Paths (not to be confused with Bike Lanes).

Ok, so skip the Physics lesson, I'm guessing you’re more of a Drama major anyway.

Here are the facts:
- an E-Bike weighs about 5 times more than a typical bike does (150lbs.), and in case your wondering, your fully loaded trike is NOT typical - nor is it an E-Bike, it's a power assist bicycle.
- because of its weight, an E-Bike is less maneuverable, and would require a greater stopping distance.
- an E-Bike is built on a broad metal frame enclosed within a fibre glass body.

So if you still believe that these machines should be allowed to be operated along our recreational Bike Paths, by unlicensed riders, then I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

There are very little statistics on E-Bikes because they were allowed to be released into our bike networks without statistics to support their safety, so I'm appealing to your common sense and good judgment.

But so is a bicycle according to some(US Forestry service bizarrely considers it on par with ATVs and snowmobiles)?

Anyways, I saw one of these scooters flying along the martin goodman trail... faster than those martin goodman criterium racers(another story).

It just looks illegal, i thought about calling the police. But maybe it isn't? The problem with the law is that there are so many interpretations by people(lawyers by far the largest offenders) who like to mold it to their own will breaking it's spirit.

For sure motorcycles, scooters and e-bikes included, will be infesting our hard-won bicycle infrastructure soon if laws aren't more verbose. It's harder to get them out than it is to keep them out.

I hope I won't hear that lame beep beep from behind while cycling in a bike lane.

I also wish you'd agree to disagree, it would be an improvement on your disrespectful insults to various posters here.

Have you done the Coxwell hill?

You don't have to pedal to go faster than cars on that incline. And kids ride all over the place without "parental sanction". Otherwise, they have no independence.

I'd rather not be hit by ANYONE.

My point is your bias against e-scooters since you have no backing proof other than opinion on these so-called "dangers" that don't seem to be playing out in any REAL way.

If you want to license e-scooters--then I want cyclists to be licensed as well for speed and dangerousness because statistically--they are in more accidents.

E-scooters were only "allowed" as a pilot project until the statistics proved they were more dangerous or not. Since there were already stats from other regions where they have been used, that is what was used to decide on the pilot program as "cycles" here.

So again you have your facts bass-ackwards.

Now from what I heard they have been or will be "passed" very soon as biks because statistically they have been proven safer and had less accidents per capita than bikes--just as what happened in every other jurisdiction where they're allowed.

Now unless we are going to license by weight [300lb cycler vs scooter with 150lb rider] or speed there is no definitive difference other than prejudice.

What I am saying to you is that fair is fair. E-bikes can be designed far more easily to do 60mph with a front and back motor than a scooter, that is restricted, can. There are folks who HAVE done this to e-bikes. A scooter is limited by the weight and motor governing.

You are also not taking into account the Great American Equalizer--The Almighty Dollar.

I can buy a bike on the corner for $40. If I smash it up--so what? I'm out $40. But if, as a lower class person I invest $1000-$3000 in a scooter you bet I'm going to be a damn site more careful NOT to smash it up and create expensive repair bills.

Also, it's noticeable that the police are right on top of e-scooters about legalities. Almost every rider I know has been stopped at least once [and often more] to check them out. How many cyclists have been checked out for safety in the past year?

What you are talking about over and over is aesthetics. The GOOD part of the aesthetics can help cyclers because if a scooter or larger trike is behind you [and most I've met are nice about passing] they can actually help protect YOU because traffic sees them and do not want to veer into them into the curb the same way they will crowd cyclists.

They are more visually orienting to drivers who then have to pay attention and won't claim, "Didn't see ya".

If someone takes the governor off and is going faster than 30mph on an e-scooter or e-bike--please DO call police.I'd encourage it.

In Ontario an e-bike falls under the vehicle laws the same way all bikes do.

For sure motorcycles, scooters and e-bikes included, will be infesting our hard-won bicycle infrastructure soon if laws aren't more verbose. It's harder to get them out than it is to keep them out.

"Infesting"? Pardon me?

Okay so according to your great plan of eugenics--every cyclist must be able-bodied or be de-wheeled.

Well that's going to leave most of the population over 40 in their cars. 10% asthmatics. 7% population of arthritis sufferers. Anyone with back, hip, joint conditions that cannot cycle.

So good luck getting enough of the population to support your "cycling infrastructure" since we have no access to it--why would we all give a rat's azz whether you have cycling infrastructure or not when we're the majority?

Think it through.

Trikester,

I stand by my previous comments.

An E-Bike which I consider to be this: http://www.insideview.ie/photos/sightings/madcat_commuter_...
is fine everywhere except on a Bike Path in my opinion. Your trike, which is power assist bicycle, is all good to me, anywhere, anyhow.

If you have data on the safety associated with E-Bike use I'd love to see it.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

The law for e-scooters/e-bikes is 16 not 15, as you stated above.

These sorts of errors are precisely why I find your arguments invalid.

An E-bike does NOT weigh 5x more than a typical bike. It IS a " typical bike" with battery and motorized front and/or back wheel. Weight differential depends on the kind of battery, how many motors/battery etc. It can be bought that way or customized with a kit. It is generally lightweight.

An e-scooter weighs in at 100-175 [trike] lbs and is almost incapable [unless it is the cargo trike sort which only goes 24mph due to turning tippyness] of carrying much cargo thus including only it's rider's weight which must be under 230 lbs in most cases. By law it cannot go more than 30mph and most are governed for 28mph.

What does "stopping distance" have to do with anything? Any trike or special bike or even regular bike with cargo can require more "stopping distance" and have less maneuverability than a regular bike. Even without a battery I cannot maneuver a trike nor stop as quickly as someone on a bike. It is something that one learns to adjust.

Your assumption that the above causes danger in and of itself is just that--an assumption with no proof. Any rider of "alternate" cycles must take this into account.

Unlike bikes where riders must take their hands off the handlebars to signal, e-scooters have flashers. Thus, the safety of the vehicle in regards to itself and others is higher, not lower unless, just like poorly skilled cyclers, the driver is not adequate.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. When you can back your assumptions up on these risks with statistical PROOF I will believe you. Every jurisdiction that has legalized e-scooters and e-bikes has found the opposite.

However, since you don't seem to understand the basic difference between these sorts of vehicles, it's very hard to take your complaints seriously.

I suggest you spend some time riding an e-bike and an e-scooter in a safe place to see how they handle and what adjustments need to be made in a rider's skills before you make blind assumptions.

You are too late, really. Here is the PDF on e-bikes/scooters after the pilot project and WHY they were passed. So you can kvetch about it all you like. However, it has passed.

http://www.ontla.on.ca/bills/bills-files/39_Parliament/Session1//b126rep.pdf

HERE is the commentary version:

The sad part is, cyclists and e-ers are on the same side. Less cars.

Trikester,

Must I repeat myself?

I did not say that a 15 year old could operate an E-Bike, what I actually said was that, “anyone over 15 years old can ride one”

I have made clear distinctions between E-Bikes and Power Assist Bicycles, yet reading your comments I still think you are getting the two mixed up.

Here is an AD for an E-Bike sold in Toronto, notice the Product weight of 185 lbs.: http://www.blueavenue.ca/DaltonElectricBike.html (it also states a 60 lb. weight for the Battery); that's at least more than 7 x the weight of my bike.

In my last post I asked if you had data on the safety associated with E-Bikes, the PDF on the ammendments to the HTA you provided does not offer any. But there is a clause that states: A powerassisted bicycle is a bicycle with a power assist, as defined in federal regulations, but it must still be capable of being propelled solely by muscular power. As I understand it, the pedals on an E-Bike are there so it can be moved from a roadway in the event that the motor stops working. Before you launch into another tirade, think about it, who is really going to pedal a 185lb E-Bike anywhere? Thus the distinction between Power Assist and E-Bike.

Lastly, you are also making MPH references to KPH standards.

So if we agree to disagree fine - but I'm done with this subject.

My favorite e-Bike

Looking for an e-Bike with attitude? Try this one:
http://www.blueavenue.ca/MayhemElectricBike.html

Coming soon to a Park near you........it's 2:00pm on a Sunday afternoon, do you know where your children are?

You think it through.

30mph is way fast for the martin goodman trail.

Yes and cars/trucks also fall under that same law, why are you stating the obvious?

Infest yes - That is what pests do, they infest and generally make life miserable for the host - allowing scooters on our bike paths will destroy the reason we created them(to get away from motorized commuters - including scooters!!)

No, trikester, it isn't eugenics - riding a bicycle does require you to be mostly able bodied, so does walking. Fact of life. Don't act like I made those rules. I guess you'll acuse me of being a nazi soon also(after all were talking on the internet).

Further, those disabled have motorized wheelchairs which travel at a more appropriate pace. Again if you have back, hip and joint conditions take a car or bus, even a moped or a motorcycle... but don't pretend just because you have a disability and can't cycle that you should get carte blanche to terrorize people on the bike trails/paths.

Maybe you're a good responsible e-biker, but be honest... it's only going to take one bad apple to ruin it and get everybody banned. I just hope I'm not the victim of said bad apple.

Finally, it's cycling infrastructure, it's for bicycles. Not scooters and motorcycles - that would be "cycling infrastructure"

cheers.

Well if all the elitest bicycle riders would educate themselves on their own rules and riding techniques and follow the bicycle laws all the time not just when it is convenient for themselves then they have a valid arguement, but intentional law breakers have no say about other law breakers. In court a case would be thrown out if the accuser was a law breaker as well.

Also if the TCU would get their act together and stop fighting every other type of vehicle on our roads, which is a big waste of time and money. Then use the same energy, time and money on educating all their members on proper bicycling techniques and rules of the road, then the TCU may actually accomplish something useful.

Ken Finch

What are you complaining about Ken Finch? That people don't follow the law 100% of the time with 100% accuracy? Most people are diligent, but you have to realize they're not robots.

The Toronto cyclist union is somewhat effective in getting bicycle awareness out there, are you offering to step up and help? TCU has already called for a distinct legal separation of e-bikers and bicycles. A good move in my mind.

What the TCU has called for is for the cyclist community to fit back. But it's members do not fight back properly, they fight back by illegally riding on sidewalks endangering pedestrians and children. They also believe they can race through stop signs and lights, ring their bell and speed passed slower vehicles on the roads and bike lanes without slowing down or signaling at all. You hardly ever see a cyclist signal for a turn they just turn right in front of traffic without even a shoulder check and wonder why motorists treat them aggressfully. It is because cyclists have earned the way motorists treat them by the way the cyclists drive. If the cyclists would start following the HTA rules more closely and signal more and do proper shoulder checks and stop riding on sidewalks then they will earn more respect from the motorists. You are not given respect until you earn it.

Cyclists will only earn that respect and the right to complain only when they start becoming less dangers themselves on our roadways. The TCU mainly highlights other vehicles faults on it's website, it very rarely highlights cyclists faults in accidents. If it want to further their cause then they should be less biased against all other vehicles including the TTC and try and develope a educational respect for it's members and other users on our roads. Right now if you look on their website majority of ther articles is about how a poor cyclist was victemized by the bad evil motorist. Unless you dig very deep in the website do you see a story about cyclist laws and road techniques. Those stories should be on the front page daily. Or make it a mandatory part of membership that upon signing up for the TCU the cyclist has to take the CAN-Bike coarse or a refresher before that member is alowed to become a meber. That would help educate their members and would be a very good accomplishment instead of whinning about cars, transit, E-Bikes or anything else they can think up to waste time, money and wasted energy on. If they put just half of the effort in on cyclist education that they spend on useless endevours then all their members would have been prperly educated 1 - 2 years ago.

Ken Finch

As a part time pedestrian, I also hate when cyclists ride on the sidewalk or breeze through red lights without regard for me. However I recognize these people are very unlikely to join a bike union, I suspect most members are more respectful of the rules than the average rider.
I don't see it as the Union's main concern either, it's way down the list. It's more a pedestrian issue, we should speak up at these riders and point them out to the police if possible.

Also what TCU has called for cannot be accomplished because it is an infringement on cival rights. They want E-Bikes to only look like bicycles and that is all. If you strip the ABS plastics off of a scooter style e-bike all you will find is a slightly modified bike frame with a battery, controller, motor and horn and lights and signals. Scooter style E-Bikes have been designed with crush zones in the front, back and both sides. If you hit with your fist on the sides front and rear on the ABS plastics it will bend under the impact and will not hurt your hand. I dare you to do that to your solid metal bicycle frame and say it does not hurt. Also myself and other people chose scooter style E-Bikes for their cargo carrying capacity and ease at stowing stuff away. My trunk carries daily my charger, a 30' extension cord, a full set of tools, air compressor, patch kit, spare bulbs, spare fuses, a walky talky style CB Radio and a Tom Tom GPS Receiver.

Under my seat I carry my lunch (when going to work), my Netbook and its AC Adapter, some cloths and any other stuff I want to carry. In my glove compartment I carry a set of riding gloves on one side and a permanently mounted 12V 3A AGM SLA battery to run any 12V electronics and a car horn and a motorcycle alarm system under the front fairing.

That is why I chose a scooter style E-Bike. I have a Walmart 18 speed mountain bike with a hard shell trunk on it's cargo mount with a small 12V battery and a small under the seat tool kit. But because of it's classic bicle desighn carrying even a small amount of weight in the trunk make the bike top heavy and hard to ride because the center of gravity is too high. Same with bicycle stye E-Bikes the heavy batteries are high on the frame and the bike is top heavy thus a danger for a beginner cyclist or even a seasoned cycle rider that is used to a standard bicycle. A scooter style E-Bike has it's center of gravity below the foot plate because that is where the heavy batteries are, thus making the E-Bike more manouverable and easier to ride compared to a bicycle or bicycle styele E-Bike.

I have an idea, why not try a scooter styled E-Bike out so you will have the experience before you say anything about them. Until you do, you have no right to make unsubstantiated (sp?) accusations or claims. I rode a motorcycle for 12 years, then a bicycle for 4 years and now an E-Bike for just under a year. So I have the experiences from all the vehicles in this discussion, DO YOU?

Ken Finch

True and you are correct. But the only problem is if you do point them out to the authorities, usually the police say they are busy and move on. What we need is more enforcement of all our traffic laws, not for just bicles but for all vehicles including cars, transit, E-Bikes, pedestrians and bicycles. That way their will be more of a chance of being punished for law breaking, then the law breakers will think twice more before doing something illegal because they have more of a chance at getting caught.

But to be fair, any E-Biker that decides to ride on the sidewalk, ride without pedals attached or break any laws should be fined and or his/her E-Bike confiscated by the authorities. But the same should apply to bicycles as well.

Ken Finch

Hi all,

I tried an E-scooter the other day to clear my misconceptions and biases. I diddn't like it.

It was my friend Louis' Daymak. Diddn't take note of the model or year number. He let me try it in a parking lot here in Ward 26, and I took it on a park path and onto grass, just for good measure.

As a 6'1" 190 lb athletic male with expert cycling skills and a valid G-class driver's licence, including commercial truck driving experience and closed-course skid pad experience, I found the E-scooter definitely heavy at curbside, somewhat difficult to maneuver, slow to bring to a stop with both brakes, and incredibly difficult to pedal under human power. These criteria alone, in my perception, put the vehicle in a completely different class from other two-wheeled vehicles.

While the smaller diameter wheels felt like they lowered the centre of gravity on the e-scooter, the sheer weight of the E-scooter kept me wary of dropping it to the side in a moment of inattention. I diddn't pick my feet up for a few minutes, worried about falling. Afterwards, I asked louis if he had ever "put it down" (motorcyclists commonly refer to falling with their vehicles in this way). No was the answer. The thought occurred to me that falling with a bicycle would be vastly different from falling with an E-scooter. More damage, more injury, greater risk with the e-scooter. Dropping a bicycle seemed easier, by comparison.

Once underway on motor power, I found the turning radius of the e-scooter to be much bigger than I had anticipated, and made it more difficult to maneuver around obstacles. A suddenly moving automobile or other obstruction entering my path of travel would be exceptionally hard to swerve-and-avoid. Bringing the e-scooter to a stop required more distance than I had anticipated, because the brakes seemed soft, and as I later learned, the weight of the vehicle was significantly more than I had imagined it to be.

When i was finished riding 2 laps around the parking lot, onto the park path, and a quick jaunt across some open grass, I asked how much it weighed, he said 150 lbs. I can ordinarily lift about 210 lbs, with effort. I tried to lift the E-scooter using the back handles. I got the back tire off the ground, but the front tire stayed firmly planted. It was way more than 150 lbs. "There is no way that could go on a bus rack." I said. "Oh no!, you'd never put this on a bus rack!" said Louis. "it takes two of us to load it into the SUV." "And the wheels don't come off," I said. "No, but you can take the battery out," said Louis, as he motioned to the centre of the foot platform, lifted the mat, and showed the 1' by 1' battery. That's why I couldn't lift it from the back. The e-scooter's centre of balance was way forward.

Using the pedals was super-awkward. I had to pedal with my legs wide and akimbo, as the width of the pedals and seat height couldn't allow my legs to fully exend. "Wow, this is really tough!" I exclaimed. "It's set up for my wife!" he yelled. Heh! "Does she pedal much!?" I asked. "No, that's what the motor's for!" Heh, I thought. "Sometimes you have to pedal when going up hills," he added. I couldn't have bore to pedal much more than a few minutes. i could already feel my legs complaining. "You really wouldn't want to pedal this very far," i said. "Yeah," said Louis.

My other complaint was form factor. "It looks like an ordinary scooter." My feeling was that it would be very easy for anyone to mistake the E-scooter for an ordinary scooter. What I call an "e-bike", like for example my friend Chris' Wheeler MTB outfitted with a Bion-X hub and Li-Ion battery pack, looks much different, and more like a traditional bicycle. "The fairings, wheels, and lights all make it look like a scooter, Louis". He diddn't disagree. "I respect your choice nevertheless," I said.

I frankly told Louis that I diddn't like it, thanked him for letting me try, and we agreed E-scooters are not for everyone.

I would not reccomend an e-scooter to anyone based on my own recent personal experience. I have yet to try an "e-bike", hopefully later this week. I'll let you know how it goes.

This is my own opinion based on my own experience, and I am sharing it with the intent to communicate knowledge and share experience. I apologise if it offends, disturbs, or upsets anyone reading.

enjoy the ride,
brian

Thanks for your opinion Brian, it is valuable. But I will give you a tip. Daymak E-bikes are all good E-Bikes if the customer pays for the E-Bike then immediatly walks the E-Bike over to another experienced E-Bike technician to do a thorough safety check before the purchaser tries to ride the E-Bike. Daymak technician are no better then the Walmart or Canadian Tire bike assemblers (basically just students or people off of the street with no prior knowledge on assembling E-Bikes, gas scooters, ATVs or any of the other vehicles they sell). Ask anybody with experience in the E-Bike community about Daymak and they will 1st cringe then laugh about Daymak's service and support. The E-Bike you probably tried out was the Daymak Smart E-Bike which was originally made by Luyuan company in China, but Daymak orders their E-Bikes from Luyuans lowest priced lowest quality production line to save money. Before I bought my Mobility Unlimited Condor E-Bike I looked in Daymak. All their E-Bikes on display had assembly problems, stripped screws, loose crews and bolts, mirrors were not tightened down, too tight of a chain, front and rear brakes were way too loose and should have been tighted up (that is why the braking distance is too long, my E-Bike can stop in 8' to 10' from a full 32km speed, and with all the stuff I carry and my 200 pound weight me and my stuff and my E-Bike must weigh close to 500 pounds). Also the Smart E-Bike from Daymak's frame is made from lighter and smaller tubular metal the most other E-Bikes that is why the steering is wobbaly because the steering column is really not strong enough for this style of E-Bike. Try an E-Bike from Mobility Unlimited and it's dealers, Blue Avenue, Velteq or Segway of Ontario. All their E-Bikes are higher quality E-Bikes and the technicians that assemble the E-Bikes are experiencedand trained technicians. If you need further proof about Daymak and its reputation talk to any customer that has purchased a vehicle from them and then had to try and get supprt or warranty supprt from Daymak, you will quicky find out. Exspecially talk to owners of Daymaks Saigon Gas Scooter, that is if you want a laugh or two.

Ken Finch

To make Bixi bikes IMMEDIATELY visible to motor-traffic drivers and to pedestrians, the wheel rims and fenders should be painted BRIGHT RED.

Here are the details. Pass it along to anyone you know who works for the City.

Bike safety workshop for employees
This June, the Toronto Environment Office, as part of the Smart Commute program and Live Green, will launch an employee bike share program for the Toronto Public Service. A pool of bikes will be made available for employees who want to ride to meetings. In anticipation of the program, a Can-Bike safe cycling workshop will be held June 1 for staff interested in learning more about cycling and road safety. Registration: http://insideto.toronto.ca/hrweb/training/learning_guide/c...
Employee Bike Share Program: http://inside.toronto.ca/smart-commute

Question: Considering that there are only 560 members in the TCU how are you so certain that it is these riders who are endangering everyone?

I have noticed that spring brings about a larger percentage of rogue cyclists - but isn't it really their own safety that is being jeopardized?

Although I do remember that time, about a year ago, when a bike plowed through a concrete bench and into a bus shelter killing a 17 year old girl and injuring seven others - NO wait, that was a car - my bad.

What I saw were e-scooters, not pedal-assists. The ones where it looks like the people are on kitchen chairs with wheels. I think it's a lot easier to just hold down the throttle and just let-her-rip. Not as easy if you have to pedal to keep it going.

It's just more work - usually - for a cyclist to achieve the same consistent speeds and to become oblivious to whoever is in their path. Certainly cyclists can be fast jerks, but e-scooters are engendering a new species of road/path user.

Interesting experience, Brian. Not many of us have the chance to try them out. I tried out a regular bike with the BionX electric-assist motor a few weeks ago. I felt that it wasn't too heavy, but it had a lot of power output even on the lowest setting. The difference is that in order to get the electric-assist working you have to be pedaling. On an e-scooter or e-bike that is not the case. People often take off the pedals altogether.

Pedal assist - Need to keep pedaling in order to engage electric-assist
E-bike - No need for pedals whatsoever.

These are the basic differences that the bike union is trying to drive home.

Which road user has earned enough of your respect to be treated with dignity???

Oh that is right, apparently none of them!

How many kids and mothers were killed by cyclists on sidewalks since 1901 Mr Finch?? Oh yeah, that is right... 99.9999% of them were killed by other motorized vehicles!

Nobody nobody deserves your aggression because they don't shoulder check. Just because you don't see them dotting their I's and crossing their T's doesn't give you the right to "teach them that lesson the TCU never did " vigilante style.

Why should the cyclist feel inclined to respect the motorist when the motorist won't even respect their own rules? The nature of the road isn't one of earned respect, simply common decency, something you seem to be lacking towards your fellow cyclist.

Bicycles have lightweight wheels that crush if such an collision were to occur, but since a bicycle only weighs 30lbs it really won't do any damage by itself!!

see calculation:

16kg bicycle going 32km/h(8.9 m/s) hits solid stationary object, kinetic energy released - 633 joules
68kg e-bike going 32km/h(8.9m/s) hits solid stationary object, kinetic energy released - 2693 joules

So, your e-bike hits with 325% more force.

Your argument against somebody having no "rights" to make a claim because they didn't ride a motorcycle for 12 years or brush their teeth counter-clockwise for 2.5 years is not useful for settling any sort of real debate - Aside from the fact you rode a motorcycle a bicycle and an e-bike.

TCU should really worry more about getting more cycling bike lanes, better cycling education programs and try and make their members safer riders. But instead most of TCUs efforts are on trying to get rid of automobiles, E-Bikes (scooter styled only, elitest attitude) and transit. Who cares if we pedal or not, does it really matter. The E-Bike (whatever style) was legislated into law because the rest of the world has had E-Bikes on the road for at least 2001 to the present with little problems compared to other vehicles (EG. automobiles and bicycles). The 3 year pilot program passed with majority having a positive response. TCU the Ministry has made a decision now grow up and get over your elitism selfishness and lets work together instead of against each other.

Right now most independent bicycle riders I meet on our roads obey the laws and I pass them giving them lots of room and they just smile and we separate with no ill effects.

But then the problems start when I meet the elitest cyclist who believes he owns the road and I am violating his territory (sounds like animal like thinking doesn't it), he then weaves in front of me so that whenever I try to pass he blocks me. After a minute or so I usually politely toot my scooter horn. If that does not work then I blow my built in FIAMM Freeway Blaster car horn, that usually draws attention to us and then the elitest usually backs down because he now knows everybody has been alerted to the situation and knows he is in the wrong and may get in trouble if there is a Police Officer in the crowds. That is what the public needs to do from now on, if these cyclists try and take the law into their own hands illegally, just add a loud horn to your vehicle to alert the public around the situation. Law breakers do not like attention, and loud horns draw attention. A good mix I say.

Ken Finch

If you ever see me out riding any day of the year, set back and watch me without letting me know you are there. You will see I drive on the right side of the road, I signal always with shoulder checks always as well. I never ride on paths in parks, I only occasionally ride in the bike lanes. When I pass a cyclist I usually pass on the left (I usually signal left, do a shoulder check, then turn left into the car lane, pass the cyclist, signal right make sure there is adequate room do a shoulder check then turn right back into my lane). The only time I usually have problems is when either a automobile or a cyclist notices I am a E-Bike then they take measures to block me from turning even though I am signaling and when I shoulder check looking right in their eyes. But they usually give a rude gesture and continue to drive aggressively for no reason. Their reason is because I chose to ride my E-Bike on the same roadway as them (my mistake for doing something the law says I can do). Now according to this thread the cyclist are allowed to ride aggressively and break the traffic laws and the TCU member cyclists are angels and never do anything wrong. But any other vehicle on the road has to get out of the way of the cyclists so he does not have to slow down one bit to abide by the traffic laws. Now lets get back to the real world. Cycling is a form of exercise and recreation. The cyclist does not want to slow down because it takes energy to get back to speed, well too bad that is an inherent part of cycling and you do have to yield to stopped or slower traffic ahead of you or yield to faster traffic behind you. That is part of driving on our roads. If you do not want to drive safely, with common sense and with courtesy, then stay in your bike lane and on your bike paths, but stay off of the roadways because YOU are the danger to the other vehicles on our roads. Like you said common courtesy on our roads will solve most of the problem, well cyclist head your own words and use courtesy, exspecially downtown Toronto.

Ken Finch

Ken,

Respect is good, but it is totally absent in your reference to TCU members.

If you were riding my backside in a bike lane in your motorized E-Bike then I would probably find that incredibly bothersome also. I can imagine having to accommodate your 28" girth beside me as we share the narrow Bike Lane for a brief time as you pass me.

You say you have a car horn on your E-Bike? That must be way more annoying that say a BIKE BELL!

Think about it Ken, it isn’t the TCU that’s polarizing road users, it’s the behaviours of people like you.

I am not really the problem. In the rest of the world scooter styled E-Bikes have been legalized for the roads with no apparent problems and little problems between scooter styled E-Bikes and cyclists. It is just here in Toronto, and Toronto alone there is a problem occuring. And usually the initiater of the problem is a cyclist not wanting to share the road with the E-Bike. Actually out in the real world not in a virtual world as these forums 99% of the time I am riding myself and cyclists actually have no problems. Since I bought the E-Bike last year I have had really only one problem with a cyclist and he was in the wrong. It is only on the forums that cyclists show their selfishness and disrespect. Out in the real world I say the same thing as I do hear with respect. I do not call on the other E-Bike or motorized vehicles to try and ban bicycles off of our roads, unlike the TCU is trying to do. How about this, we change the traffic laws so that ANY vehicle that is to travel on public property must be licenced, insured and safty checked to be allowed on our public properties. That includes E-Bikes, bicycles, segways, automobiles, motorcycles and pedestrians. That way we are all completely the same and all will have the same access to our public properties without prejudice like the TCU is having against scooter styled E-Bikes. The TCU is becoming the modern day Ontario version of the KKK. Next they will have and Action Alert to have their members run us physically off of the roads and hang anybody on anything but a bicycle.

Like I said in the real world there is actually no real problem that I can see or experience. TCU has a solution seeking a problem that is not really there in the real world. Again wasted time, energy and money best spent on other real world cyclist problems. This must only be an Toronto cyclist problem only. In BC, Alberta, NS, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, PEI, Quebec, NB and the rest of Ontario ther is no problems, just Toronto. If that is the case just licence and insure all vehicle only in Toronto. I am sure the TCU would loose all its member support then. Cyclists want a biking infrastructure and no helmets (a very stupid idea though) and they want everybody else to pay for using our roads vie licencing and insurance. But when it comes to themselves they do not want to have to pay for anything. Where do you think the money comes from to pay for the biking infrastructure. It comes from the tax payers and all the other vehicles via gas taxes and other taxes. When I pay for my electric bill via taxes on the bill I pay a little towards our roads and what not. Cyclists other then the small amount of taxes they pay on the bicycle and accesories they do not continually pay into the ifrastructure. But they do use the infrastructure. If bicycles had an annual licence and insurence to pay for then they would be paying into the infrastructure regularly and of coarse the cycling infrastructure would grow faster because the users are actually paying for it instead of getting a free ride on the backs of other users of the roadways.

Ken Finch

I said you have no right to critisize a vehicle with your imagined up problems. Until you actually try a quality version of the said vehicle then you have more of a say in the matter. Now if you go into trying out the vehicle with a closed mind then do not bother because the outcome will not change. Also do not intentionally choose the worst quality worst case model of the said vehicle because of coarse the experience is going to be bad. A $1000.00 or under scooter style E-Bike is going to be built out of the least quality parts and be assembled in the fastest but least safest way to save money. A $1100.00 and up scooter styled E-Bike is usually from the manufacturers higher quality line which means higher quality parts and more care has been put into the assembly of the E-Bike. Why do you think your Bionx E-Bike parts are so expensive campared to a run of the mill E-Bike conversion kit. Because higher quality parts and more care was put into assembling them. It is really just common sense though, we should all really start using more common sense. Even on these forums.

Ken Finch

Ken,

There is so much inaccuracy in your post that I am reluctant to engage it.

But here's one thought: If you trying to get people to buy what you’re saying you might want to keep the KKK references out of it.

Just throwing that out there.

Will you make up your mind sheeze! First you say I am not a cyclist, and now you are sayin I am, make up your mind please. I do have respect for cyclists, E-Bike riders, automobiles, pedestians, and any other living things and objects. Like I said come and ride with me in the real world before you set back and judge me. If you did, as long as you are not close minded or prejudice you will find that there is actually no problem. I yield to bicycles and pedestrians all the time unless there is a saftety concern that can cause a problem. If I am riding in the bike lane and I come up to a cyclist, I do not try and pass him/her in the narrow bike lane, I pass the cyclist by moving into the automobile lane on the left after doing a safe left signal, left shoulder check then turn left into the automobile lane. After I have safely passed the cyclist I signal to the right, do a right shoulder check and then right turn back into the bike lane. If there is a lot of cyclists in the bike lane then I do not even ride in the bike lane at all. I ride on the furthers right of the right automobile lane.

Ken Finch

A 28" girth isn't so bad, I see wider trikes and trailers on the bike lanes every day.
My old fashioned style cruiser bike has 27" handlebars yet isn't in the way.

I am not trying to sway anybody to like or buy an E-Bike. That would be a useless cause in this thread. All I am trying to point out is that the TCU and the TCU alone is trying to eliminate scooter styled E-Bikes with no real reason or excuse to in the real world. That is being prejudice and acting elitest. Show me real world examples of the problems with scooter styled E-Bikes and if the amount of problems are many times more then the problems cyclists cause themselves on our roadways then I will back down and agree. But I can almost guarrantee you that the TCU will not be able to come up with real world proof of the apparent problems the TCU has made up. The Ministry and the rest of the world has accepted scooter styled E-Bike (in fact the scooter styled E-Bike sells to a factor of around 12 to one more then the bicycle style E-Bike). So why is the TCU the only organization that is not accepting them, that has to say something about the TCU. If they would just remove the Action Alert and try and work with all of the E-Bike riders any style, you will find we can actually get along and get more cycling infrastructure built faster. I still ride my bicycle during the winter and on weekends with my daughter on her bicycle and my son on his tricycle. I am not against cyclists themselves, I actually like them. I just do not like what the TCU is trying to do. It is TCU's managements decisions that are the problem, not the actual TCU members themselves.

Ken Finch

My full size scooter style E-Bike has a handlebar width of 26", and that is the widest part of my E-Bike. My Walmart mountain bike has 28" handlebars. Maybe I should not ride my mountainbike is too wide then. The only time my E-Bike is wider is when I am carrying home $50.00 to $60.00 of groceries on it. It is wider because I have the seat, trunk and floorboard full of groceries and the extra groceries are tied to the side of my E-Bike back by the tail of my E-Bike on each side. But I buy the groceries 1/2 a mile from my home in North York and I ride on the side of the road because North York are where I live has no bike lanes at all.

Ken Finch

I put a car horn on my E-Bike because the E-Bikes horn is weak and automobile drivers can not hear it when their windows are rolled up with the air conditioning on and their radio turned up with a cell phone in their ear (well this fall laws will come in to effect that will solve the cell phone problem). And the horn is also helpful for other users of the road that choose to ignore my weak E-Bike horn. Be glad I do not still have my FIAMM two air horn system installed, it could be heard up to 2-5 miles away. I realized it was too loud and downgraded to a standard car horn. But I can easily put the air horn system back in in 10 minutes but I choose not to use it. Horns are there to get attention, that is why I upgraded to a louder horn to better draw attention in needed situations. It may be annoying, but that is actually a good thing and is what I want. But I only blow it when needed. But I try using my E-Bikes horn first, and use the car horn when the E-Bikes horn does not draw the needed attention.

Ken Finch

Don't you see the irony of putting a giant car horn on the thing you are arguing to operate in a Bike Lane?

I suspect many people buy them because of their gas scooter appearance. Riders would feel safer on a bigger hunk of metal and hope for more respect from the motorists. Unfortunately, this creates some problems for the lighter cyclists with whom the e-scooter shares a lane - a lane that is a smidge too small for scooters (and trailers, as well as trikes).

There are REAL problems. Not problems that require the removal of e-scooters, but problems that need to be addressed and solved.

Tom remember I only ride in the bike lanes occasionally. My weekday commute to and from work is along Victoria Park from York Mills Road to Sheppard Avenue during rush hour in the morning and at night (no bike lanes along that route at all). And when I go downtown I only ride in the bike lanes along the lower section of Victoria Park and along Donlands Road to get to Mobility Unlimited on Gerrard Street across from Gerrard Square Mall. Other then that I am riding on the roads with automobiles. I do not ride on bike paths by my own choice, even though I could I choose not to. I stay away from bike lanes near the downtown core because those bike lanes are usually filled with potholes, broken glass, etc. I maybe very vocal here, but in person I am usually friendly and outgoing and try to not get into arguements unless pushed into them. But I will stand my ground on issues I am interested in. I do enjoy riding when I can and usually do not see too many cyclists on my routes (even if I did I would ride normally without cause problems on my route).
Also on my bicycle I have purchased and installed a bicycle air horn I purchased from a bicycle shop on Queen Street and Coxwell Avenue.

Ken Finch

I believe the bicycle air horn was called the Airzounds, cost me about $20.00. I keep it pressurized with a portable air compressor.

Ken Finch

Thanks Dash, that is what I am trying to say. If Toronto would widen all the current bike lanes and install hell of a lot more widened bike lanes that are continuous throughout the city then we would not be having these issues at all. But Toronto's beurocrats (sp?) are very short sighted and only accomplishes stuff that will benifit themselves. They do not really care about the city too much, just how they can line their pockets and their friends pockets with more of the taxpayers money. Who gets a reliable salery increase every year non stop, answer Toronto's Counsil and other city officials.

Ken Finch

First, glad to hear you follow traffic laws, we both know too few of us do.

Second, the more dangerous your presence on the road the more you should be forced to follow the rules. If i were to apply your argument:

"If you do not want to drive safely, with common sense and with courtesy, then stay in your bike lane and on your bike paths, but stay off of the roadways because YOU are the danger to the other vehicles on our roads"

Then we could rightly assume small children near the road are the most dangerous road using people around(they hardly follow any rules). I hope that doesn't jive with your common sense. Unless you want to force people to lock up the children that is.

Lastly, you claimed cycling is a form or exercise and recreation. That is another common stereotype. Cycling is much more than just people in spandex, it is the most environmental way for people allover the globe to commute and earn a livelihood. That is just for starters!

Fellow cyclist as in your fellow man.

We are fellows still,
Serving alike in sorrow

Get rid of that motor and battery - listen to the quite whir of pedals instead!

Cheers.

I'm not going to try/buy an e-bike, but I've seen enough of them in action to form some ideas. You'll note I don't have to drink 10 beers to form an idea about my potential drunkenness either.

As per the physics experiment, it is accurate. Many e-bikes weigh in at 150lbs and travel near 32km/h. The laws of physics apply still.

Your e-bike crashes with 325% more kinetic energy than a 30lb bicycle going the same speed.

An e-bike has way more potential to cause serious trauma than a bicycle.

Which is safer, An E-Bike in a bike lane or on the side of the road with cars and cyclists (which almost all are) or a bicycle speeding bicycle on a sidewalk with pedestrians and children (which almost all bicycles are daily).If I was to keep count on how many bicycles I see on the sidewalks even when there is no traffic I would be into the 100's within an hour or two and I would not have to travel no more then a few city blocks. That is how bad the situation is in the cycling community. It is so common that new cyclists do not even know it is against the law. And the cyclists that know it is against the law encourages other cyclists onto the sidewalk. TCU does not even try and persuade it's members from riding on the sidewalk at all. And what is worse most cyclists even ride full speed through pedestrian crosswalks weaving in and out of the pedestrians and most of the time scaring them and barely missing them. If you do not believe me, spend some time downtown Toronto for a day without you cyclist blinders and prejudice on and you will see how bad it has become.

Ken Finch

Yes but what you forgot to mention is that I will be on the side of the road or in a bike lane with my E-bike (much less of a chance at hitting a pedestrian) where you will be speeding along on your bicycle on the sidewalk because you do not feel safe on the roadway (much more of a chance at hitting a pedestrian). See most E-Bike riders ride on our roadways and feel safe enough to stay on them all the time. Majority of the cyclists are fearful of our roadways because of inexperience or just plain selfishness and use that as an excuse to break the law and endanger pedestrians and ride on our sidewalk. If that was to be allowed in the same manner then a new car driver who is timid of busy roadways should be able to start driving in the bike lanes or on the sidewalks or bike paths. Fair is fair. Ignorance or excuses are not a reason or allowed in law to break the laws of our society, why do the cyclists think they are exempt or above our traffic laws. Just because they are a greener form of transportation (try and use that on a judge and see how far you get). If I was to set up a solar charging station and only charge my E-bike from that only, will I be allowed to ride on sidewalks and act selfish and ride carelessly because I am now a greener vehicle, I think not. In the eyes of the law I am still just a vehicle on our roads just like bicycles are. Or did you forget that in law a bicycles is considered a vehicle and must obey all vehicular rules on our roadways. Most of the cyclists ignore that part of the bicycle rules, same as they ignore stop signs and stop lights.

Ken Finch

TCU not polarizing users. What is going against an established ruling and prejudicing against one style of E-bike then the other. You cyclists want us not to use your bike lanes fine, but the bicycles stay off of our sidewalks and roadways, you drive too dangerously to use them. Stay in your bike lanes and bike paths and driveways ONLY. Fair is fair correct.

Ken Finch

Ken,

The TCU's position on E-Bikes was drafted before the legislation you are referring to.

Please understand, the TCU's position addresses the concern that cyclists would have to share an underdeveloped network of cycling infrastructure with a motorized vehicle. The fact that the issue of e-bikes is a new issue makes it worthy of debate.

I still feel that a 200lb + E-Bike posses a far greater threat than a bicycle, regardless of the circumstances.

I respect the fact that you don't use Bike Paths, and I applaud your use of alternative transportation.

Don't let a few bad cyclists taint the overall cycling community.

Ok, I have re read my posts here I posted in the last few days (Oh my God is my spelling attrocious).
I do get very passionate about the issues I believe in and sometimes do not realize until I have posted what I have typed. Since I cannot edit the posts after they are submitted it is too late to take back some thoughts I typed at that moment. For that I am sorry. Yes I do agree a heavier E-bike is more dangerous then a standard bicycle. But so is a touring bike with loaded cargo bags, a trike, automobiles, etc. It is up to the driver of the vehicle to drive/ride as safe as possible. I try and do that every day, now I am not perfect and have made mistakes in the past. But I learn from that and do not commit the same mistake ever again. I have never hit anybody or even come close to on my E-Bike, motorcycle or bicycle in all the years I have driven them. I have had accidents where I dropped the vehicles, but I get back up, lick my wounds (just a phrase) and verify the vehicle is road worthy and continue on and do final repairs on the spot or later if the damage is superficial. I understand TCU's position, but they are going about it all wrong. They do not need to try and get the scooter styled E-Bikes licensed and insured which will kill their market, like what happened to Mopeds. Instead they could try and get all E-Bikes out of the Bike Lanes. And not prejudice against either style, just have all E-Bikes out of the bike paths and bike lanes all together.

It would not really bother me too much if I could no longer ride in Bike Lanes or on Bike Paths at all. I am fine riding on the side of the road everyday because 95-98% of the time I am doing that anyways.

So I submit to stop posting about TCU's standings. But I do believe the TCU should either edit their Action Alert or retract it.

Ride safe, obey the traffic laws, and keep the rubber side down!
Take Care,
Ken Finch

Right On Ken - Ride safe as well.

Tom

Are you really seeing that many cyclists on the sidewalks? I cycle downtown every day and rarely see this. I'm sure it's totally dependent on area though. I rode through the construction area on bloor today for the first time and the whole time I was wishing I chose the sidewalk instead, and hoping I wouldn't crap my pants. I noticed a number of cyclists chose the sidewalk over the road in that area.

I admit I'm monstrously lazy though. When I choose a sidewalk over a road (always for safety reasons), I never get off and walk. I just tend to coast along at walking speed instead, telling myself that I take up less room that way.

Way way too many people cycle up a sidewalk at full speed - I'm honestly surprised we don't hear about more cyclist-pedestrian collisions.

Wrong! An ebike is an e-bike. A limited scooter is a moped, capable of greater speeds and is gas powered. Good thing they didn't make it look like a rocket ship. It's just a cosmetic covering...You can do the same thing to a regular bike and make it look like a scooter...It would still be a bicycle.
We have had the scooter style e-bikes in BC now for about 5 or 6 years and there are thousands of them with no problems. Ontario seems to be the biggest knocker of these things. I ride a just a regular bike, but I really do not understand the negativity to this product. In another 20 years or so, I may want one.

Yes an e-bike is less manouverable and more predictable in its movements..A bicycle can turn on a dime...which is exactly which makes its movements unpredictable to other cyclists, pedestrians and cars. The problem with e-bikes lies in cyclists minds and no one elses. You do not here people anywhere else being so negative. The truth is cyclists (in general) have an attitude towards every one including cars, pedestrians, skateboarders and now e-bikes. Speak to a motorists, and who bicyclists are the problem...you know how you feel when people ban together against you, and now you are doing it to the poor e-bikers. Let them ride in peace.

I will have to agree that the Action Alert against E-bikes from the TCU is a little alarming since really the two should ban together and fight for the same issues at hand. My scooter style weighs 132 pounds with the battery and the weight really should not be an issue. Handle bar to handle bar they are the same width as a bicycle and both could injure someone in the result of a collision. I am 55 years old, and my scooter e-bike replaces my car on the nice days. I do not feel the need for speed like I did when I was younger this fits the bill for my needs perfectly. I have had absolutely no issues with other cyclists except for the odd ignorant comment from the same cyclist whenever he whizzes pass me. He is just a moron on a bicycle and I do not judge all cyclists by him. My speed depends upon my surroundings and I have never had to use my horn once in two and half years. So in closing, while I commend the TCU on its efforts to make cycling safer on the streets on Toronto, I really think they do not do themselves justice by that posting. Ken certainly is passionate about his e-bike and the fact that there is now another alternative to driving a car especially for short commutes should be recognized instead of ostercised. Just my opinion...

The average weight of an e-bike is closer to 167 pounds. There are heavier and there are lighter. The crush zone of the plastic is a valid point and the riders speed really is not 32 except under ideal conditions...my average moving speed is really around 22 km per hour. (love my GPS) The exciting thing about the bikes is the batteries will one day very soon be much much lighter and so will the bikes. Have a little vision and patience. I will be moving very soon to a nickel zinc battery that weighs 22 pounds lighter than my lead acid. While it may not be till next year they exist. www.powergenix.com

A cyclist riding along a sidewalk could kill or at least injure a kid on a tricycle coming from behind bushes...Hypothetical but true. So what is the point, which one is MORE dangerous?
A person in a 300 pound mobility scooter could also cause serious injuries to a child or a pedestrian. We all agree, it is a dangerous world out there. Keep playing the "what if" game and an insurance company would love to insure both...

Brian

The bike is not designed to pedal under normal circumstances, but to assist on steep hills. They are extremely easy to pedal up hills with the motor engaged. Pedaling takes the stress off the battery and at 5 foot 5 inches I have no problem. There are people in the world that cannot ride a bicycle for many reasons, or choose not to because there are too many hills in their path. It is great you pedal. You are lucky to be so healthy that you still can. One day when your hip goes, or your knees give in or you lose your licence to diabetes, you may consider one of these to go to the corner store to get some tylenol for your pain. Your critique of your ride on Louis bike is certainly not a raving review of his bike...It was nice of him to let you try it. I am sure someone shorter and less awkward would have seen the attributes in the bike and enjoyed the ride instead. LOL No jab intended just having fun....There is a two wheeler for everyone out there....

I was riding along Bloor today and paid extra attention to the other cyclists I saw. Although not all were bad, I did see two incidents of cyclists riding a good distance on the sidewalks, and another passed on the right of a right turning taxi at Sherbourne.

I can only imagine the posts that will be laid thick on this site once the police start their bicycle safety blitz during Bike Month; stuff like:: "It's So Unfair", "Punishing Cyclists", "What About the Frigin' Cagers Man", blah, blah, blah.....

Better get your lights and bells on now while you still can.

E-bikes are quite nimble and easy to stop. I don't believe they go nearly as fast as an e-scooter though, but I tested this one a few years ago when they first started coming out. The intention was for it to be assistance to pedal power only. The owner mentioned that she got lazy sometimes and let it do all the work, but that would blow the battery charge really quick. When I tried it out, I was letting it do all the work, and while it was a peculiar feeling to have a bike move without any participation, the feel of it was still the same as any other bike.

I can't believe we are still debating this.

Please focus on the example below:

Bike 20lbs.

E-Bike 200 Lbs

Car 2000 Lbs

Skill testing question:
Rank the three vehicles from most dangerous to least, in a 32kmh collision with a pedestrian.

Of course not every bike weighs 20 lbs, and not every E-bike weighs 200 lbs., but (for God's sake man!) it should stand to reason that there are varying degrees of danger depending on the mass of the vehicle involved in a collision.

For the purposes of this test I have excluded Mobility Scooters, if you have to ask why - DON'T.

I find the same Trikester...In real life people are interested in them and ask a million questions. On blogs, it brings out "tunnel vision" in people. Just because they don't want one they think they shouldn't be allowed. If bicycles just came out in todays market, they would be insured, licenced and registered because of their speed, because they are prone to accidents and head injuries. Cyclist who oppose these scooter style e-bike are really narrow minded, with no vision and oblivious to the laws they break probably 15 times a day. Bikes are extremely "manouverable" which makes them unpredictable on the roads. They dart in and out, and leave accidents behind them, but they quite often are the cause...Gone in 6 seconds...poof!

You just accused other people of "tunnel vision", yet you managed to paint all cyclists with the same lawbreaking brush: "Bikes are extremely "manouverable" which makes them unpredictable on the roads. They dart in and out, and leave accidents behind them, but they quite often are the cause...Gone in 6 seconds...poof!"

This whole thread is just getting worse and worse.

Hmmm, Tom sez

Bike 20lbs.

E-Bike 200 Lbs

Car 2000 Lbs

You demonstrated that e-bikes are much closer to bikes than they are to cars. My bike is about 3 times the weight of yours but I won't quibble.

Copenhagen has no problem with e-bikes in bike lanes, can't see why it's such a touchy subject for Toronto. The more under our umbrella, the merrier, I say.

Bicycling sure is dangerous...and here is the proof...so what should we do...ban them? insure them? or licence them? Why don't you leave the poor e-bikers alone? You guys along with Yvonne should be looking for as much support as you can get, without alienating yourselves from e-bikers as well. One less car on the road....Choose your battles more strategically. You all sound like children.

http://maker.demo.geocommons.com/maps/69

10:1 is the ratio either way. That's what I sez. I'm not totally against E-Bikes, but they're not the same as Bikes.

Sorry to hear about your 60lb bike.

I own a mini van, a sail boat, a snowmobile, 2 bicycles and a e-bike that resembles a vespa. I love all three for completely different reasons. My car for long hauls, one of my two bicycles for excercise and travel and my scooter style for going to the mall and around the neighbourhood. People love it and I look great on it. LOL I do not know why all the fuss about e-bikes on this forum. You do sound like children. These are very common from my country and It is about time they arrived here. They are certainly no more dangerous than my bicycle or my car for that matter because of increased speed. My brother was hit by a cyclists and received minor injuries. The rider was on a sidewalk of course. I do not ride on sidewalks ever since.

My husband and I are both TCU members but neither of us support the TCU's position against E-bikes. I'd rather see someone on an e-bike than in a car, and the more people wanting to use bike lanes, the more pressure on our city to improve the bike lane network. We've got a long way to go before we see wide bike lanes that allow for passing, or a cycling network that isn't mostly in the door zone. Allow e-bikers to join the union and include them in advocacy efforts to improve cycling infrastructure. As for safety, there are a lot of things that worry me when my kids go somewhere on their bikes, but e-bikes in the bike lane isn't one of them.

Sorry our arguments aren't sophisticated enough for you, thanks for the complaint though!

On a constructive note, we're not picking on e-bikers, they can ride on the road all they want. I just don't call them a bicycle or want them recognized as one, really they're mopeds. If you want too see what poor traffic planning does check out Italy, horrendous number of mopeds around.

If you want to get people out cycling in bike lanes, you won't because they'll get scared shit-less every time an e-bike goes buzzing by them 2" away(though many drivers feel 2" is a safe passing distance). Rarely does a cyclist ever go 32km/h for 4 hrs buzzing everybody in the bike lane for kilometers and kilometers.

Lastly, we're not trying to get cars off the road and force drivers to pedal, seriously, we just want to be able to ride our bikes safely and comfortably... There is no media hyped "war on cars" such drivel.

Speed isn't the issue, weight is. Lets hit your brother with an 150 piece of metal vs the 30lb one that hit him. Then we'll see how he feels.

Whatever country you're from, we're not just going to outright clone it here. Canadians will decide what we want on our park paths and in our bike lanes. Hopefully we can learn from any mistakes others have made before us.

Nancy, only a childish person would assume that something happens the same way everywhere.

Cheers.

More like 50 lbs, but I keep up fine with anorexic bikes who hate the idea of fenders, carriers, lights, chainguards and even bells weighing them down. I figure I'm getting an extra workout! :-)

Anyway, if Copenhagen can deal with e-scooters, huge cargo bikes and leggy blondes without wearing helmets, then I figure the safety issue is overblown. Let's move on to important issues.

Hey Electric, it is not Canadians that will need to make the decision, the rest of Canada has already made the decision to legalize all styles of E-Bikes as bicycles. ONLY, and I mean ONLY Toronto cyclists are the ones with an anti scooter style E-Bike attitude. Even the rest of Ontario has no problem with them. Now which side do you think the Ministry will side with? Toronto cyclists only or the rest of Canadian cyclists. Which is the majority? Why do you think the Ministry has legalized the E-Bikes even before the Pilot Program was over? It was because the 3 year track record was overally positive by all of the rest of Ontario except for a very small group called Toronto cyclists and their union. And also the Ministry saw the proven track record of all E-Bikes from the rest of Canada and the world. So like so many have said before, why not join us in trying to get a better cycling infrastructure instead of being a stubborn minority in Ontario and the rest of the world that will just be treated like the lonely kid in the corner of the school ground that does not want to try and fit in with the rest of the kids.

Ken Finch

Also Electric Italy and the rest of Europe is an older and more mature traffic culture then Canada and the US. They have a wonderful system that supports all forms of vehicles a lot better then we do hear in the Americas and Canada. US and Canada became car centric at the expense of all the other forms of transportation. A little history lesson, back in the beginning of the automobiles electric cars and bicycles were the majority of vehicles on our roads till petroleum was invented. Well guess what with the acceptance of E-Bike we are just return to our transportation roots.

Also I will enlighten your ignorance about E-Bikes, most E-Bike can only run at full speed for about an hour per battery charge, to get 4 hours run time the E-Bike would have to crawl along at speeds of about 5-7 Kmh. Also most cyclists do race around at speeds at or around 20 to 35kmh. What are you riding an old single speed bicycle. I can easily get my cheap $100 18 speed Walmart mountain bike at or around 25-35kmh for a reasonable amount of time, and I am a 40 year old with bad knees and a bad back.

Also nobody passes anybody with leaving 2" of space. The wind turbulence from the passing vehicle would immediately cause an accident. Is your judge of distance or vision that bad, if it is then you are not fit to ride a bicycle or any other form of vehicle. You definately would be a danger on our roadways if you thing 3' equals 2". Get your facts straight before posting again please.

Ken Finch

Annie D...You have an open mind and I respect that....I am glad not all TCU members are supportive of that action alert.It is important for us all not to lump everyone in the same category. I have a lot of cyclist friends that love my scooter style e-bike. Quite often for fun we will switch, and I will pedal theirs while they are "scooting" behind me.

Looking back on this massive thread, somebody way back identified the way that Power Assist Bikes are defined.

ref:
According to the ammendments to the Highway Traffic Act there is a clause which defines a power assisted bicyle as follows: A powerassisted bicycle is a bicycle with a power assist, as defined in federal regulations, but it must still be capable of being propelled solely by muscular power.

So, let’s do away with all of the hard feelings and have some fun with this with a pedals only E-Bike Race!

I was born in England, raised in France, studied in Germany. I lived in British Columbia for 5 years, which is where I first saw these e-bikes. British Columbia, which is your country, has had them for many years. In Quebec,where my sister lives, these are very popular and according to her, well received. I believe bill 126 passed and Canadians did decide. It is a small group that is opposing, like you. Before the car, horses and buggies ruled the roads and many like yourself, opposed the car, claiming they were dangerous and just a passing fad. I prefer to be open to change, because people who are not, never do.

To pedal or not to pedal? That is the question. Who cares? If they replace one car then they serve their purpose. Mopeds had pedals too, and no one ever pedaled them. Motor Boats have paddels and no one ever rows one. At 32 km per hour (on perfect level ground with no headwind if you don;t weigh a lot) I do not see what the big deal is. It is nice to banter but really the two should get along just fine...But then that would't make for a good blog now would it? LOL

They are not mopeds...A moped is a gas bike with speeds greater than 32 km per hour that requires a licence and insurance. If you could go 32 km per hour for 4 hours you would get somewhere and maybe be more inclined to take an e-bike instead of a car. Nobody uses their scooter style for distances like that any more than a cyclist would. In the burbs where I live, I can go to the store back and forth 10 times without even seeing a cyclist. I have never passed a cyclist 2" away either...You play a lot of hypothetical and rediculous cards to try and prove your case. The government has declared them legal and they did their homework. You are speaking emotionally about something that you personally do not like. There are thousands of motorist who don't like cyclists. How would you feel if they created a blog to get you off their roads.

Lets hit your brother with an 150 piece of metal vs the 30lb one that hit him. Then we'll see how he feels.

That was rude and uncalled for...your prejudice towards "other countries" shines through. I am assuming your parents and grandparents and their grandparents before them were born here?
Europe is way ahead of us in Ontairo, just as BC is way ahead of us here. I must keep in mind however that the few bloggers that are against e-bikes of any style are really a very small miniscule percentage of the population, so it would not be fair to blame all of Ontario for a couple of bloggers.

A lot of arguments in here are very subjective. It's all about personal experience and what area they are experiencing it in. The posters comments are much more accurate for downtown than they are in the burbs. Scooters ARE buzzing cyclists 2 inches away. Why? Because they are large. There's not enough room for them. The bicycle lanes simply weren't designed for motorized scooters.

Count me out for that race Pedaler...LOL...Let me know when we have the 5 km uphill race...thats the one I want...

I was born and raised down in Alabama
On a farm way back up in the woods
I was so ragged that folks used to call me Patches
Papa used to tease me about it
'Cause deep down inside he was hurt
'Cause he'd done all he could

My papa was a great old man
I can see him with a shovel in his hands, see
Education he never had
He did wonders when the times got bad
The little money from the crops he raised
Barely paid the bills we made

For, life had kick him down to the ground
When he tried to get up
Life would kick him back down
One day Papa called me to his dyin' bed
Put his hands on my shoulders
And in his tears he said

He said, Patches
I'm dependin' on you, son
To pull the family through
My son, it's all left up to you

Two days later Papa passed away, and
I became a man that day
So I told Mama I was gonna quit school, but
She said that was Daddy's strictest rule

So ev'ry mornin' 'fore I went to school
I fed the chickens and I chopped wood too
Sometimes I felt that I couldn't go on
I wanted to leave, just run away from home
But I would remember what my daddy said
With tears in his eyes on his dyin' bed

He said, Patches
I'm dependin' on you, son
I tried to do my best
It's up to you to do the rest

Then one day a strong rain came
And washed all the crops away
And at the age of 13 I thought
I was carryin' the weight of the
Whole world on my shoulders
And you know, Mama knew
What I was goin' through, 'cause

Ev'ry day I had to work the fields
'Cause that's the only way we got our meals
You see, I was the oldest of the family
And ev'rybody else depended on me
Ev'ry night I heard my Mama pray
Lord, give him the strength to face another day

So years have passed and all the kids are grown
The angels took Mama to a brand new home
Lord knows, people, I shedded tears
But my daddy's voice kept me through the years

Chorus:
Patches, I'm dependin' on you, son
To pull the family through
My son, it's all left up to you

Oh, I can still hear Papa's voice sayin'
Patches, I'm dependin' on you, son
I've tried to do my best
It's up to you to do the rest

I can still hear Papa, what he said
Patches...

They aren't larger than regular bikes. Same width, just as easy to pass.
They're even shorter in length than recumbent bikes but rightfully nobody has a problem with them sharing the lane.
Quit generalizing and exaggerating about scooter riders being disrespectful in traffic.
My theory is that you get assholes in all areas of life but they don't constitute more than 2% of the population.
2% of cyclists are assholes who buzz pedestrians on bike paths, 2% of car drivers are assholes who don't give cyclists room, 2% of pedestrians are assholes that talk too loud on cellphones.

Does anyone know of a hill nearby with a continuous 5 km climb? With the elevations in the area, I doubt it would be much of an incline. It sounds like it would be a nice ride though.

The vast majority of bike lanes in Toronto are not wide enough for one cyclist to pass another. Actually, I can't think of any right now that are wide enough for safe passing.

In fact, many bike lanes are barely wide enough for a single cyclist to fit in without having to ride in the door zone or other dangerous areas.

I personally never pass another cyclist within the bike lane. Always change lanes first. The same should apply whether it's a regular bike, recumbent, e-bike, cargo-bike, unicycle, whatever.

So yes... "There's not enough room for them. The bicycle lanes simply weren't designed for motorized scooters." But there's also not enough room for regular bikes to pass.

This is 5.4km, all uphill (ignore the gmap-pedometer mistakes in elevation), climbing the escarpment in Hamilton on a rail trail:
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=2847587

A fit cyclist could easily maintain over 32km/h on this ride and would beat the e-scooterist.

Could also do a bike vs. e-bike vs e-scooter ride up Yonge St. from the lake to Steeles. Lots of good ups and downs there. :)

I have also passed an e-scooter on Dundas St. coming out of the Humber Valley, riding my heavy recumbent and carrying lots of stuff in my pannier.

They are more voluminous - but I think the real issue is the mass.

It seems that an e-scooter is basically the size and mass of a real scooter like a Vespa, but with very poor performance.

I don't want to see a Vespa on a bike path or in a bike lane, even if it's doing 20 km/h. So I guess I don't want an e-scooter there either.

As far as "zoomy cyclists" hitting significant fractions of the speed of light, vs. e-scooters that are "limited to 32 km/h", I'm assuming that the e-scooter will go a heck of a lot faster than 32 km/h given a good downhill; same as a bicycle. Unless the brakes come on automatically as soon as it exceeds 32, then the greater mass of the e-scooter will do better at overcoming aerodynamic resistance than a light bicycle. (Which is why the really heavy guy on a bike is a faster downhill coaster than the light guy on a bike. Too bad about uphills!)

I have had several "fit cyclist" whiiz past me while I was riding my e-bike so I probably wouldn't want to put money on it...:LOL
I wished I could pedal. But I after many operations It was a choice between a mobility scooter which I hope I never need or this. Alot of people who are against these really do not fathom that maybe others do. This has been a godsend for myself. Why should the choice be a car or a bicycle? Alternative choices were necessary and le voila it's here. I love mine, my neigbour loves his and he has good legs, and to all the people that don;t like it....great stuff...I am happy I could piss you off so easily.

The Department of Transportation has deemed an e-bike not to be a motor vehicle and to be treated as a bicycle. Here in BC we have had them since 2003 and it was never a pilot program.
There were a small band of people that whined here too. 10,000 bikes and 6 years later you rarely hear from them anymore...They are back whining about motorists and pedestrians...

Now's your chance.

The event that launches Bike Month 2009, The Group Commute Ride, will have some special visitors:
The starting point in Ward 26 will have the City Concillor John Parker along with other enthusiasts riding ebikes in to City Hall. Come and join us at the corner of Laird Drive and Eglinton Avenue at 7am.
The Ebike is not for those classic bicycle enthusiasts necessarily but for those who drive cars with combustion engines. It is hoped that electric vehicles, be it the 4 wheeled or 2 or 3 wheeled variety will become common place. Monday morning will be a celebration of the legislature in Queen's Park passing Bill 126 and recognizing electric bikes as "bicycles" with some restrictions in the legislation and the Highway Traffic Act.

Let's All Breath Easier

Louis

Handle bar to handle bar they are the same width. Their overall look is wider because of the fairings, however both take up the same area...Sitting on the bike, the cosmetic covering is
between the handle bars..In plain english...a cyclist requires the same space.

The Department of transportation labeled them under "power assisted bicycle" because they fit all the criteria. They did however also include a whole new set of laws and fines for lawbreakers that is stricter than for cyclists. Good thing too for cyclists because If they were as strict , they would be ticketing thousands and thousands on a daily basis, for a multitude of reasons. A good example would be if the police saw a scooter style e-bike or even an open frame e-bike, on the sidewalk they would for sure get a ticket, while they turn a blind eye at the moment to cyclists. E-bikers have to ride with a helmet whereas it is the cyclists choice over a certain age. Nobody calls them a bicycle, because that would be innacurate, however we do have the right to call them a power assisted bicycle because that is exactly what they are. There are two styles of power assisted bicycles, one that is considered an open frame and one that is considered scooter "style". Dress a duck up with a suit and tie, and it is still a duck. (that phrase was quoted to me from a cop)

"Good thing too for cyclists because If they were as strict , they would be ticketing thousands and thousands on a daily basis, for a multitude of reasons. A good example would be if the police saw a scooter style e-bike or even an open frame e-bike, on the sidewalk they would for sure get a ticket, while they turn a blind eye at the moment to cyclists. "

This topic has generated a mountain of subjective comments, like the one above.

I wish people would preface their posts with – “I think” or “My opinion is” instead of proclaiming every personal perception as the fundamental truth.

We are very early in the Electric Bike game, there really is very little that has stood the test of time.

PowerGenix Supplies Batteries to North American Light Electric Vehicle Market Nickel-Zinc Batteries to Provide Zero Emission Power Supply for Veloteq Corporation ebikes

www.powergenix.com

If you want to talk about something constructive for a change, this kind of stuff is exciting. The battery technology is what these babies are all about and this company in San Diego is bringing out something very exciting soon. I was at the Las Vegas Bike Show and met the president of Power Genix. They will be supplying this new battery very soon to one of the e-bike companies very soon. 80% charge in 1 hour and full charge in 2. Weighs less than lead acid by about 25 pounds.
This stuff is exciting and proactive..

Seymore
There are over 10,000 e-bikes on BC roads since 2003. There was a lot of consideration done regards to the maximum alotted speed and power output. 32 km per hour was decided by the DOT after studies showed that 32 km per hour is a reasonable maximum speed a fit cyclist can achieve.
500 watt motor was agreed upon because 480 watts is the output that a human being exerts to achieve 32 km. 16 is the minimum age and helmets are mandatory. In fact, more consideration went into these than a bicycle. Anyone can own a bicycle and ride in traffic at any age.

Roads aren't the issue in my opinion, in fact I hope our city streets see more E-Bikes.

However, I think that putting E-Bikes on recreational Bike Paths is a risk that needs careful consideration, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.

With a higher percentage of younger riders on our park trails, are we putting kids at risk with the inclusion of E-Bikes?

Take a spin along the Beaches bike path today, and then tell me that E-Bikes are a safe addition to this environment of swerving tots and roller blades.

Yes, this is what i meant.

Traffic in the bike lane is mixed(please no strollers) at best, but I have a feeling any e-biker is going to behave like any other motor-powered driver and ride your ass no matter how fast you're going... hope you can pedal faster than 32km/h all the time or you'll have 150lbs of steel and battery riding up your butt trying to pass you.

There is no real regulation on the width, and with the appearance of e-scooter style incarnations of the e-bike idea you can obviously see they're wider.

Yeah, like you can sit there and tell me cars aren't dangerous.

I'm open to change also, just because we don't want the same change doesn't mean i'm closed minded.

First.
Obviously you've gotten the point, a 150lb e-bike does more damage in a collision than a 30lb bicycle. Sorry I had to construct such a shocking real life scenario for you.

Second. Personal attacks?
I'm not sure where you're getting this idea about my prejudice towards other countries. Really. How do you know where my grandparents were from. If my grandparents were from somewhere, why would you think I'd want to recreate their country here in Canada?

I guess it never crossed your mind that I could be aboriginal, but I bet aboriginals aren't on the radar of somebody who thinks Europe should be Canada's role model.

I've met trikester and she is a nice person but I must say I would not like to be stuck behind her in QueenStreet style traffic. At the speed the trike goes and the width of her trikes back end will negate any chance of me passing her, until we lose the parked cars on my right and the commuting cars on my left I would prefer only slender style bikes / e-bikes on our streets.

Thats just my opinion, not backed up with any facts or physical data. I just don't want to be slowed down/stopped by someone who is making half of the effort infront of me, its really more about the principal than anything else.

Oh and 200 pounds of bike versus 15 pounds of bike.
You dont need Bill Nye the Science guy to tell you which is going to come out on top in a collision. The narrow channels that we use now for biking are not going to get any wider with more and more people switching to e-bikes/bicycles from cars.

Oh and its been said a billion times before but...
We need more space for cyclists/non-car commuters and perhaps a secondary lane for the larger "e-trikes" and heavier "e-bikes". Til then I don't see the space we have right now being usable if the percentage of pedal/e-bike commuters is doubled or tripled (which can happen very easily).

I still feel e-bikes should get a speed boost and be categorized as a moped, with all associated licensing. You're right - there just isn't enough room for them in the bike lanes. They go too slow to stay behind, but go just fast enough to make it difficult and dangerous to merge into traffic and pass them.

Trikes are a different story. They're large, but they're easy to pass (except for the odd tight spot... I don't know about you guys, but being caught in a bicycle traffic jam always brings a smile to my face)

Well I decided to change my E-Bike scooter style riding habits. I am going to stay out of the bike lanes to satisfy the selfish, self absorbed cyclists. I am going to ride to the right of the road like I always do. Automobiles are not a problem to me, and I am not much of a problem to them in my experience, as long as I try not and block them too much. But now if a cyclist is in front of me on the side of the road tries to prevent me from safely passing them, then I will lay on my car horn right behind him until he backs down and lets me safely pass. Fair is fair, I will stay out of the bike lanes, but stay out of my way in the car lanes.

Ken Finch

What's the problem with crossing the streetcar tracks, safely merging into the lane with cars and streetcars, passing trikester, and then crossing back into the parked car lane again?

Hey Dash, how about instead of trying to kill the E-Bike industry while it is in its Ontario only infancy, by wanting us licenced and issured, that is what killed the Moped industry, why not do something more useful, like help your fellow man. By the way this is a Toronto only cyclist whining problem only, the cyclists in the rest of Ontario and Canada are not complaining. Why don't you just try and fit in like 99% of the rest of Canadadian cyclists. If you keep it up Toronto's officials will get tired of your whining about automobiles, E-Bikes, pedestrians, transit or anything else that is not a bicycle and just require Toronto cyclists to have to have a license and insurance to be on the roads. That will in effect kill the Toronto biking market and infrastructure. For them it is a win win situation, they get extra revenue from the licensing and plates, also as the biking infrastucture stops being used they can stop adding to it or maintaining it, thus that money can be redirected for other projects. Keep it up and what I described may become a reality. Like I said this is isolated to Toronto cyclists only. Search the web, the only references to E-Bike problems is links to TCAT, TCU and Toronto cyclist blogs and forums. I have done the looking and that is what I have found. So get over yourselves and lets talk about stuff that really matter instead of self absorbed whining and describing unrealistic virtual problems that do not reflect reality.

Ken Finch

Tanya Q asks:

"What's the problem with crossing the streetcar tracks, safely merging into the lane with cars and streetcars, passing trikester, and then crossing back into the parked car lane again?"

The chance of taking a good tumble if my wheel gets caught in the tracks. I run 23C tires....

Turning left, say at King and Bathurst, or at Queen and Roncesvalles, is another fun experience. Yes, I've done them all on narrow tires, but it takes a lot of care. Ditto Lake Shore Blvd, where there's the issue of an additional lane of speeding cars to worry about.

The worst thing about crossing streetcar tracks is the need to slow down to take them at a sharper angle. Slowing down is not what you want to be doing when you're likely to be pulling in front of other traffic!

You need to learn to Google better. :) It's definitely not just a concern in Toronto.

There was a whole bunch of controversy in Ottawa last summer about e-bikes on the NCC's multi-use pathways:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2008/08/06/ot-ebikes...

More in the Ottawa Citizen:
http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/greatero...

Banning e-bikes from the Georgian trail:
http://www.theenterprisebulletin.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e...

Etc....

I'm not wining, I'm expressing my opinions and views in a non hateful manner. I stand by them, despite your attack.

Changing the law to accelerate the ebikes so they may keep up with regular traffic would solve a number of problems right off the bat. Mopeds are unpopular in this city because of their ridiculously filthy emissions. An ebike would be a fantastic alternative. Many people switching to ebikes may already have a G license which the moped (and in this fantasy, the ebike) would fall under. I say "may" of course because I have no stats to back up that statement - it's just a hunch, I'm working from. In a perfect world, there would be a (less expensive and tiresome) specific license to obtain for just the ebikes/scooter/moped group.

I'm also a supporter of the very unpopular idea of licensing cyclists too, in order to create a proper education system to improve safety. I'm also a supporter of creating a special module for driver's education that will address how to share the road with the multitude of non-car drivers.

I effect, I strongly support safety - as do you and anyone else with half a brain. These are simply my ideas for creating that safer environment. I accept your distaste for them, but it has no effect on my personal opinions at this point in time.

Well like I said before, now I will also get flack from the E-Bike crowd as well for this. Why not change the law so all E-Bikes are not allowed in the bike paths and bike lanes. But also I believe bicycles should be licensed and have mandatory helmet laws. And all bicyclists must take a Can-Bike coarse before they can apply and get their bicycle licences. Also E-Bike riders should also have to take a safety coarse as well and/or license and insurance. But in real life this will never happen. Because cyclists want their cake and eat it too. They want every other form of transportation to be licensed and insured and require helmets. But themselves they do not want to pay for licenses and insurance and they do not want to wear helmets themselves. They also want a bicycling infrastructure built for them, but they do not expect to have to pay for that infrastructure themselves, they want everybody else to pay for it but not themselves. How fair is that really.

Ken Finch

Well Vic, I may sound like I am saying the exact opposite of all my other posts, but bear with me. But I do believe E-Bikes of any style do not belong in the bike paths in the parks (I said bike paths, NOT bike lanes on our roadways). Bike paths are in parks where a lot of pedestrians with strollers or toddlers on tricycles or kids bikes are. An E-bike would be dangerous there. (so is speeding Lance Armstrong wannabees).

I have never rode my E-Bike on a bike path and never will, that is my personal choice and my personal belief.

Ken Finch

Ken,

Please note that as the owner of a home and a vehicle I pay my share.

Cycling can be a safe way of travel without all of the insurance, licenses and training, because it's a cyclist's neck on the line - that's fair isn't it?

Avoid the temptation to conciliate others anxieties when you consider them to be unfounded. Base your behaviour upon everyone else's expectations and you'll stand, er, ride on shaky ground.

If cyclists did likewise and conformed to prevailing attitudes most would be in cars, but since the law entitles them to ride on the road and they exercise that prerogative. And since the law entitles you to access bike lanes (at least for the time being) you should do the same. Don't cede your prerogatives voluntarily.

Well I am sorry if you thought I was attacking you. But obviously you do not know about E-Bike technology. To get an E-Bike to be able to go traffic speeds for a reasonable distance would require a substancial (sp?) increase in motor power and a susbtancial (sp?) increase in battery voltage and capacity. The average price of a Electric Bike to meet these specifications would rise from a quality E-Bikes price of $1100.00-$2000.00 to $10000+, plus add on the annual license and insurance fees that would be required. No body would buy them because a gas powered motor scooter, motorbike is much less expensive. Thus you would be completely killing the E-Bike market, which the cyclists in Toronto is out to do. Plus your previous links to debates were from last year and old and related to E-bikes in bike paths. And I have stated I am against that as well. But I am standing my ground on the bike lane debates though.

Ken Finch

Can you reiterate your post, I do not quite understand it, that way I will know what you are trying to say. Thanks. By the way I am bad at the keyboard myself so, and I realize that, my grammer and spelling is bad.

Ken Finch

And my neck is on the line as well everytime I am out riding my E-Bike on the side of the road as well. I really have no more protection then the cyclist. The only difference is my E-Bike has full head and tail lights, full signals, brake lights and a horn and I wear a full face DOT approved motorcycle helmet, where the average cyclist has none of this including no helmet. And I pay my fair share with the taxes I pay as well. But with the property taxes virtually none of it goes towards the roadways, and absolutely none of it goes towards bicycle infrastructure building that I know of. As far as I know gasoline taxes, licensing fees and traffic tickets and fine fees goes towards the roadway and bicycle ifrastructure building, but not property taxes. Which means technically I am not paying for the bike lanes or roadways just like the cyclists (I just realized that, sorry).

Ken Finch

Roadways and bike lanes are funded by the CITY which only can raise revenues through property taxes (and the new land transfer tax and vehicle licensing fee).

Gasoline taxes don't go to the city at all. And would come nowhere close to covering the costs incurred by use of motor vehicles anyway (I think I've read estimates closer to $5/litre to cover full policing, road, hospital costs caused by motor vehicles)

Licensing fees basically just cover the adminstrative costs of licensing.

Parking ticket revenues do go the city (yay - but these are bad drivers paying here not all drivers)

Traffic fines I believe (but don't quote me on this) go to the police as part of their budget.

Cyclists (through general taxation) pay MORE (based on costs created by use) than their fair share....

Refund please!

The hostility seems to be concentrated in the downtown core. I ride my scooter style e-bike up in the suburbs and I do not witness any of this hostility. I ride mine a total of 24 km to work and back every day. I ride in the bike lanes and I see very few cyclists using the lane. There are hundreds and hundreds of unused bicycle paths in Toronto. The problem is not e-bikes. You all choose to work or live downtown. That is your choice, then you complain that it is too busy. There are too many cars, too many pedestrians, too many bicycles. Too many people and you are all fighting for space rather than learning to "share the road" I went for a ride with 40 scooter style bikers in Whitby with the Durham E-Bike Association. It was a weekday and the roads were not busy. E-Bikes are a great alternative to driving, as is cycling. It is about choices and options. More choices attract more people... Cyclist make up a small 2% of commuters. Add some more paths one day maybe they will be up to 3%. Add some e-bikers and trikesters and you can get that up to 7%. Then you have a voice, together. Fighting amongst each other, gives neither side much creedence, and in fact both sides end up sounding childish. Until then, let us all ride in peace and learn to share the road.

Ok, I concede to your better informed information Tanya. I was not informed and just made a guesstamate on where the money came from. So I guess we all are paying for this.

Ken Finch

This is a debate, if you can't stand "childish" voicing of contrary opinions then don't add yours. If you have a real solution other than "can't we all get along" then state it.

Originally this topic started...
"I'm all for e-bikes and e-scooters, but there have to be limits on where they can ride."
I agree.

You say we're fighting amongst ourselves.. from what I gather most of the cyclists here are united in favour losing the mopeds, e-scooters, and e-bikes(how many names do we need for the same thing) from their hard worked for bike lanes and paths.

I am already looking forward to the winter when these battery-powered hunks of toxic heavy metals won't get you 1km. Will you pedal them? Hah, impossible to pedal a 150lb legal loophole in brown sugar isn't it - let alone keep it upright.

For the fair weather though, I guess it's tragedy of the commons again or just tragedy of Toronto's bike lanes.

Well lets put it this way, Toronto cyclists are 2% of the population on our roadways and they are alienating the other 98% of the population on our roadways. But then they want us to install a bike system for them out of the kindness of our hearts. Now reality kicks in. Unless you try and get along, follow the road rules, and share our road system with respect and due care. No one will help you in your en devours. How would you feel if the E-bikers and the motor Scooter drivers, motorcycle and automobile drivers and pedestrians you Toronto cyclists alienate all gathered together and signed partitions and all wrote our politicians to stop adding and building on the Toronto bike system because the cyclists do not want to share. And we kept at it till we accomplished it year after year. There is a lot more motorized drivers out there then there is cyclists. If all the motorests came together on this the politicians would cancel it fast because of the possible lost votes and revenue. Like a lot of people have said, Toronto's cyclists should be looking at us to help support your initiatives not fighting us. Us E-bike riders would rather help support cyclists, I know I would, but I and all the other E-Bike riders will not if the same cyclists are trying to get my E-Bike and all the other E-Bikes out of the bike lanes or legislated out of existence, or licensing and insurance added that does the same thing by making my E-Bike too expensive to run. I guarantee if bicycles had to be licensed, insured and mandatory helmet laws, 80-90% of the cyclists would sell or dump their bicycles, so would E-Bikers because nobody would want to pay a license fee and insurance to travel at 20 to 32KMH for short distances, it is very uneconomical. And your hard earned bicycling infrastructure would fall apart very, very quickly.

Ken Finch

Why wish ill of other people on here and hope for them to have problems with their bike?

Give it a rest on this topic shall we? Everyone's made their views known, some endlessly.

Actually only a small handful of cyclists in downtown Toronto have problems with E-Bikes. They are the same cyclists that do not like all other forms of transportation including pedestrians. They are the cyclist who believe a cyclist should only have to yield to a stop sign or stop light, ride on the sidewalks, ride across the crosswalks, turn without signaling or shoulder checking, jump curbs in traffic, weave in and out of traffic lanes dangerously. They are the ones that are selfish and do not want to share. Well let them keep riding the way they do hopefully Darwin will do us all a favour and weed the bad cyclists out. But the rest of the cyclists that do ride properly and are kind hearted have no problems with us E-bikers and do not come to these blogs because they know the hatred that most of the bad apples of the cyclist community post here. Because if they acted this way out in real life once to often, well lets just say they might not be fit enough to pedal after a short time after mouthing off once to often to the wrong people. In real life you cannot hide behind a keyboard and screen. I guarantee these very vocal group on these blogs in real life if confronted for what they say would run or ride away as fast as possible realizing that they would actually have to answer for their hostility and vulgarism that they type in these forums.

Ken Finch.

Ken,

Read your post before you post them - OK?

You lobbed a few doozies here:
Cycling infrastructure is created for cyclists "out of the kindness of our hearts"
How about developing alternative forms of transportation for an urban population that are good for our air, our health and our roads?

"If all the motorests came together on this (the bike system) the politicians would cancel it fast"
Does common sense factor into this? Why would our politicians alienate our city from the rest of the modern world?

"cyclists would sell or dump their bicycles, so would E-Bikers because nobody would want to pay a license fee and insurance to travel at 20 to 32KMH for short distances, it is very uneconomical. And your hard earned bicycling infrastructure would fall apart very, very quickly"
Never underestimate the tenacity of the cycling community.

How about developing alternative forms of transportation for an urban population that are good for our air, our health and our roads?

This is exactly what E-Bikes is all about, for people that either have health problems that pedaling consistently exaggerates (like myself with knee and back problems), for older people or commuters that do not want to be sweaty and smelly at work after riding to get there.

Does common sense factor into this? Why would our politicians alienate our city from the rest of the modern world?

A small group of Toronto cyclists and their union are already doing that (yourselves in fact).

Never underestimate the tenacity of the cycling community.

Well we are talking about only about a small number of Toronto cyclists, the majority of the cyclist community do not support your views or opinions.

If the majority of the cyclists thought and talked the way you guys do, the city would have never started the bicycle infrastructure. Luckily most of the cycling community is level headed and willing to share and support good alternative forms of transportation. They are the cyclists I and other E-Bikers and the other motorists support. Not the bad apples of the cycling community, like some on this blog that only care for themselves only.

Ken Finch

If we like like it or not, (and if we think that it was in wisdom or not) all 'styles' and classes of electric bikes have now been classified by the province as equal to pedal bikes.

We will always have some 'snobs' who won't like something. We'll still have snobs who won't leave the safety of their "cage" or "metal box" (car) for any reason. And we have snobs who won't ride ever ride a pedal bike because it may make them "all sweaty." And we'll have snobs who won't ever like e-bikes because it's not "'active' transportation" (ie human powered.) Let's not talk about snobs, because we're not likely to change the minds of snobs, at least not right away.

So we have to find our common ground.

Yes, there is quite a bit of resentment toward e-cyclists. To start with, it's because they were not involved in the fight to get bike lanes, nor are they yet (seen to be) involved in the fight to get more bike lanes. So already we found our first bit of common ground - more cycling infrastructure. Let's all fight to get more.

Next, will be the common need to improve the infrastructure we currently have. Toronto's bike lanes are pathetic -- filled with parked cars all hours of the day and night, and often pot-holed riddled collections of rubbish and debris. Physically separated bike paths/lanes are something we should be advocating for together, along with a much better state of repair.

And yes, right now there are plenty of people, even many posting here, who are intimidated by the size, weight, and styling of e-bikes. If they are -- in fact -- as safe as you claim then we need more cycling education. Besides, better cycling education would help everybody get along with each other - motorists, pedal cyclists, motorcyclists, truck driver, and even e-bikers.

Also, let's talk about the current demographic of e-bikes. Currently the primary target audience for these devices is the over 50 crowd. Kid's don't want 'em, too slow to be cool -- they'd rather kill themselves on crotch-rockets. Healthy young adults, like most of ibiketo.ca readers don't care for them, we're liking the health benefits of cycling -- even if it's just a happy side effect of our cycling. E-bikes currently appeal to an older segment of our population, many whose heath probably precludes them from enjoying pedal cycling in any serious way. Cool, we can look forward to enjoying a bike ride even when our knees give out when we're much older and much greyer than we are today. No current threat to pedal cyclists, but a potential use when we're older.

And the same education and expansion of places to cycle will help keep all cyclists (even e-bikers) off of the sidewalks. Which is something that I think we all want.

Ken, what are the other areas of common ground that you can think of that will help both cyclists and e-bikers? Let's bring these ideas to the Cyclists Union AGM on June 18 to adopt. BTW, you do have a membership, right?

But do come prepared for the 'environmental snobs' who don't want nuclear/coal powered vehicles on our roads, and also be prepared to speak to the lead and other toxic substances in the batteries of the e-bikes. Lastly, be prepared to explain how the additional strain that these devices put on our fragile electric delivery grid can be accommodated, as well as where the power the power comes from. Or don't - but do realize that this is a legitimate concern, and one likely to be raised.

I think that, overall, you'll be much more likely to find more allies when you ask for them, and are prepared to explain why it's our collective best interest to work together for some common causes then if you come in on the attack for what you think may be a mistake. And you'll find people much more willing to work with you when you also pitch in and do some of the work.