Anybody with a car horn on bike?
Does anybody have a car horn or air horn on their bike? The reason I'm asking Is because I've never really thought bells were very effective at all on the road. In fact, I don't even have a bell on my bike - I know - $110 fine, whatever - I've passed by numerous cops - they've never pegged me. But I am looking at getting an electric horn like the ones on electric scooters or cars because sometimes I feel like giving cars a loud toot for their stupidity. Plus safety and a sense of superiority. Thoughts, ideas, good products out there?
I'm sure there are purpose-built kits for this, but I used to think it would be an interesting experiment to mount a motorcycle battery on my bike, and pull the 130dB dual horns out of my car and mount them on my handlebars connected to a simple momentary switch near where I would have a bell otherwise. Here are some problems with that:
1) Batteries are heavy. It's possible you could do it with a smaller battery, and in fact that's probably a good idea unless you're also going to somehow mount a motorcycle alternator on your bike to keep it charged.
2) Batteries leak (acid). Motorcycle batteries can handle some tilt, but maybe not what we would do on a bicycle.
3) Car horns are LOUD. They're mounted inside a metal box next to loud machinery most of the time, and designed to be heard from outside that metal box and inside other metal boxes making other loud noises. Even stock horns can easily exceed 100dB, and on a bicycle it'd be mounted at most a couple feet from your head. You could deafen yourself or others easily.
4) For an air horn, you'd need a battery and compressed air - not simple at all. Those horns are generally even louder.
I don't know what electric scooters have on them, but that'd be a good place to start if you want to build something, and not look for something purpose-built for bicycles. I'll probably look for one in the spring.
air horns for bikes are readily available, and use a waterbottle shaped reservoir that sits in the bottle cage and which you can refill with your tire pump. They're light, loud, cheap, and have been around for years. Here's one brand: AirZound Bike Horn. I believe there are others, but I remembered this name.
At mec
Louder than a car horn..
Most people feel cyclists already cultivate a sense of superiority over other people, we need to feed that perception with a loud horn?
Learn to project your voice. In a situation, you don't have time to reach for a horn, but I can yell "Hey %$^$head!" loud enough to see people jump in the driver's seat. Helps that I teach phys. ed for a living: trains the voice well.
Now i know why i was so attracted to cycling!
Thanks for the responses people. The AirZound looks good, but I'm worried it'll be a little too fragile for me. Also, the clutter the cable makes is unwanted. An electric horn actually doesn't need a lot of power. You don't even need a lead acid battery. I'm sure there is something out there that is small that fits on the handlebars and uses a rechargeable battery and can produce a loud blast.
Today was a beautiful day (thanks to God) and some idiot drivers were passing me way too close. I think a loud horn would be beneficial to let them know who they just messed with. I should also try yelling at them with curse words - but I'm not sure the consequences would be good in that case.
The Fox 40 whistle is louder than a car horn - but difficult to use unless you like sucking plastic when you ride, but real friggin' loud.
Hi all,
I'm sorry if I come across as "father knows best" (most folks on here know I'm a CAN-BIKE instructor, and will criticise me for it) but really, there is nothing better than avoiding conflict by paying attention to your surroundings and being aware of what's around you. Don't react; anticipate.
Confrontation and near-misses can be avoided by clear communication on behalf of the cyclist, and that includes riding where traffic can see the cyclist, wearing brightly coloured clothes with reflective elements; and shoulder-checking to maintain eye contact with other road users in immediate proximity. These are the keys to "Maneuverable, Visible, Predictable" which we teach.
I feel compelled to take exception to the cyclist that arms himself with a noise making device "to let them know who they just messed with". If you're a cyclist out to teach motorists a lesson, that's as good as provoking a fight, in my opinion. Any cyclist braying, whistling, or honking at a motorist for nearly missing them is doing a disservice to our community by lowering public perception of how we are, and moreover, looking for a confrontation, not avoiding it.
I'm personally getting really sick and tired of militant, offensive cyclists that take to the streets ready to fight. The other night I was verbally assaulted by a cyclist who blew thru a stoplight at Danforth and Playter, and then got blocked by a driver trying to parallel park. I pulled up behind him; he looked back at me with a sneer, and I said "nice stop back there." Yes, I was intending to teach him a lesson. "Fuck off, asshole, go fuck yourself" was what I got in response; way more than I had asked for. "So this is what cycling in toronto has come to" I thought. Time to buy a car. This fixie wearing no helmet and a 70's ski jacket, pulled away from me with his middle finger in the air, missing the back bumper of the parallel parker by milimeters, and cutting off cars that had waited for the parallel parker to finish. They, in turn, honked at this yahoo making a sudden and stupid move, scaring the crap out of me with their 100db horns. The angry fixie blew three more lights that I could see, and rode on into the night.
So my point: trying to teach someone outside the context of a lesson or classroom setting dosn't work, and there are way too many angry cyclists on fixies maurading around our streets with airs of superiority to boot.
I apologise if this offends any cyclists or viewers on this forum.
Brian
Brian you make a good point, and all the strategies you laid out about anticipation are exactly what I do. I wear a construction vest, ride in the middle of the lane and check back every two seconds. In fact, drivers might think I have a twitch or something, but all the better for me and my safety. And I always signal my intentions, and sometimes resort to flailing my arms to grab drivers' attentions. (oh and I"m not a fixie - haha)
But when I'm riding along, minding my own business, and somebody flys by me at 60 kilometers per hour disobeying the 3 foot rule (obviously north of bloor) - I tend to anger quick. It just annoys me that the drivers can't take the time to stay back and make a safe lane change. They'd rather risk my safety. It's probably got something to do with the fact that most of these people are bound for the 401, and then the 400 and then vaughan or markham and their commutes are the worst part of their day.
Nevertheless, the purpose of the horn for me at least would be an effort at least to hopefully stop the driver and have a nice "educative" talk with them about what they did. I like talking to drivers - I think it is positive if the talk is nice and encouraging, rather than rude, and that is what I try to do most of the time and get them to understand what they did was wrong.
"Anticipate and avoid, but if it is serious, just get the license number and report the bastard."
What rule! There is nothing progressive like that in Ontario - besides can you imagine all the traffic delays if motorists had to give each cyclist 3 feet of space?? it would be GRIDLOCK!!!
A while back, a guy named Ken posted a comment about his Freeway Blaster car horn. He had it mounted on his e-bike, and thought that it was reasonable to use on a bike lane
I mentioned to Ken how annoying that would be.
If you must get something, the air-horn is the loudest, but I doubt it will lead to any “educational” talks with drivers.
By the way, bells are intended to alert pedestrians, plus they are 100% effective in not getting a $110 ticket.
I removed the car horn off of my E-Bike and restored the original horn. The reasons I switched back was these reasons:
Ride Well and Ride Safe, no matter what your ride is!
Ken Finch
Brian wrote about:
"This fixie wearing no helmet and a 70's ski jacket..."
Kevin's comment:
So what? I myself need gears to get around Toronto's hills and headwinds, but if someone doesn't, so what? No helmet is legal, and I am looking forward to Toronto being like European cities where nobody wears bike helmets because cycling is safe. And the 70's ski jacket... I am not the fashion police.
His profanity directed at you was rude, but let's not overreact. It is the car drivers' behaviour in Toronto that is truly rude and objectionable.
I have felt compelled to speak to "crazy" cyclists before, but never once did one of them respond with, "Who me? Oh really? I'm very, very sorry" or " Thanks for taking the time to bring that to my attention, care to share your thoughts with me so I can become a better person through your constructive criticism?"
Instead I just add up the sum total of the fines - like the "dude" who ran a red, without a bell, or light, or hands = $503.75
Enforcement is the one way to deal with the problem, fatal collisions are another.
You say: "An electric horn actually doesn't need a lot of power. You don't even need a lead acid battery."
Certainly not true with car horns. They probably pull 5-10 amps at 12V (that's 60W-120W). There's a reason that horn wiring is heavy-gauge and uses a relay.
I'm sure there are lower-powered ways to make noise, but the tradeoff is a bigger size to improve efficiency. You can get speakers that might put out 93dB SPL at 1 metre using only one watt, but now you're dragging along a 30kg Cerwin-Vega and a Pioneer amp to feed the thing--not so good. But hey, it'd be unique.
All this has already been discussed, e.g.
http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-370869.html
"...I said "nice stop back there." Yes, I was intending to teach him a lesson. "Fuck off, asshole, go fuck yourself"..."
Really Brian what do you expect? Can you think of any other similar situation involving some stranger, not involving cycling, that you would not be told to "fuck off" or something similar? Did you think the cyclist was just going to bow to you and say, "Sorry Master I bow to your wisdom?" I will not even go near the "...teach him a lesson bit..."
You are right. The cyclist was a dick. Your advice is great. What Can-Bike did not teach you is how to approach people in such a way for them to be receptive to you. If you want to play cop go earn yourself a badge. There is some disconnect here with a warped expectation on how people will accept an abrasive comment, whether it is factual or not. The better approach would have been to strike up a small talk conversation with the cyclist to see if they would be receptive to a more in depth conversation. Sometimes they will ignore this too but I have never been told to "fuck off" using it. People in general are also much more receptive when you approach them as an equal and not on a high horse.
When people shout "nice stop" or "nice signal" i'll probably just blatantly ignore them. First because i've had my fill of high-handed smart-ass comments from pedestrians, cyclists and motorists. Secondly such a comment is basically an attempt at a confrontation or a way to start a fight/argument. So, get a clue people.
As an aside... where do some people get off acting like world police? They have no authority and are lucky some stressed out person doesn't do more than just tell them to fuck off.
People, please. If you feel the need (or the right or moral superiority) to teach someone a lesson, give your head a shake. You're not going to accomplish anything by confronting people on the road who blatantly disregard common courtesy and the law. The cyclist who blows through red lights and mouths off at cars driving properly isn't interested in sharing the road or being educated, they are trying to claim the road for themselves. The best you can do is be ignored, and you might just set off a violent reaction. Just stay calm, and you can live to tell (this forum for example) how ridiculous the offender was behaving.
The roads are by design not safe and they will never be, that's why we have laws and rules and licenses to use them, to keep everyone who uses them as safe as possible. Sure, the laws could be better, but the road is not the place to stage that battle.
Stay safe and protect yourself, above all else.
Car drivers with windows up are simply not able to hear a bell...sometimes pedestrians don't either.
And while I agree that avoiding conflict is best, swerving around unpredictable moving objects (e.g. cars and pedestrians) is often more dangerous than holding the course. People usually listen for traffic and don't look, or look at you but don't see (if I had a nickle for every pedestrian that looked directly at me and then stepped in front of me....). Its not about giving a "get the hell out of my way" message. Its often necessary to give an auditory warning so people notice me.
I have a bell for polite pedestrian/other cyclist warnings and an old style rubber bulb horn for warning cars/people with headphones (not sure what to call it, my guy refers to it as my clown car horn) it is surprisingly effective - car drivers can hear it with their windows up - without being overly aggressive or deafening. I think its an excellent compromise between the bell and the air horn.
Okay, I posted the link to the Air Zound, but I have to admit I'd never have one; they're just too loud, and people are tempted to use them obnoxiously.
I don't know about Canada, but here in the US, a horn is legally to be used only to warn of danger, not to render an opinion.
Yeah, nobody sticks to that and it's never enforced, but I myself think it's a good principle.
I try (sometimes successfully) not to respond in kind to shithead drivers. Responding with horn blasts or gales of profanity simply adds one more asshole to the roads. I do use my voice as a sort of horn, but all I shout is "Yo!."
"Yo" is easy to project very very loudly, is understood as a heads-up, and doesn't carry any overt pejorative connotation. It's also a human sound, indicating an exposed human being making it.
In less threatening situations, I use my bell. Yep, got a bell on a fixie!
FWIW, I ride in Los Angeles, in traffic that would make most people lose their lunch , day and night, rain or shine, 1,000km per month. "Yo" and the bell have worked for me for years.
There's enough meanness out there without adding any of our own.
I had a dream of fitting a Vuvuzela to my bike, with a remote air hose. Never got around to it.
A horn would be really useful to try and protect against U-turners who are trying to look both ways at once, and not looking for cyclists. It's impossible to make eye contact with them, they have their windows up and can't hear bells, and it's not even clear what they're doing half the time - stopping, parking, or suddenly cutting across four lanes of traffic.
High pitched horns sound really annoying, as do Fox 40s. Bicycles have nice long tubes, why isn't there a horn with a nice long air chamber to get some low-frequency truck horn action?
When it comes to road safety, I (and presumably others) don't give a flying fig about perception. I just want a noise maker that the motorists, pedestrians and other cyclists will hear. Something that cuts through the surrounding noise and catches their attention.
currently, I have better luck with hollering than I do with my bell.
Brian; no offence taken. How long (in years) have you been riding the streets of this city? Your attitude seems a tad naive but I apologize if I've misjudged it.
I agree with Rick above...a bell is essential as a friendly warning that you're approaching on a bike. In the case of a near collision where response time is imperative, I think the best way to go is with a loud "heads up!" Its not threatening, but its loud and gets attention.
In the case of an angry motorist blowing by too close or cutting you off, I think the only appropriate thing to do is report them. Unfortunately, the circumstances are rarely conducive to stopping to write down a license plate. I think the only time when a yell (or blow of an air horn, or a gentle tap on the hood or window) is when a driver does something dangerous, but not malicious. The times when I've been cut off by a motorist who doesn't see me, this response usually warrants an apologetic wave from the driver, and hopefully makes them realize their error. Most drivers aren't out to kill cyclists, but a lot of them do need to be made more aware of their surroundings, which include two-wheeled vehicles.
-Dan
PS. I'm also against the stereotype of the fixed gear rider...I ride fixed, wear a helmet, use lights, use a bell, and stop at lights.
I am a big fan of the Air Zound and highly recommend it. I had numerous close-calls every single day during my daily commute in Toronto until I got my Air Zound (even though I'm an attentive and defensive cyclist, take the lane so that I'm visible, use lights, had a bell, usually signal, etc.). The Air Zound probably reduced the number of close-calls by nearly 75%.
I don't use it to try to teach anyone a lesson (trust me, I've tried every method, and no approach is successful in teaching anyone a lesson on the road), but I do use it regularly to draw attention to myself when I know that motorists are otherwise overlooking (or ignoring) my presence. It is loud enough to make an inattentive driver pause and give their head a shake, but not so loud that two little toots of the horn would be offensive (although if you laid on the horn, sure, that might be annoying).
It has been very useful in stopping motorists at cross-streets who were otherwise going to pull out right in front of me, stopping parallel-parked cars from pulling out and cutting me off, stopping cars in the left lane from changing lanes right into me, and stopping parked cars from dooring me. And I still have a bell on my bike for pedestrian purposes.
Don't worry, it's not too fragile (the only time I broke one was when I slid out on a snowy streetcar track street trying to avoid a turning car who had failed to check their right mirror and the handlebar mount ended up colliding directly with a parked SUV's bumper). And the long hose doesn't really clutter anything up - you just wrap the excess around your downtube.
You just pump it up with a bike pump in the morning, and that was usually enough air to get me from Roncesvalles to downtown or U of T and back. If you have a longer commute, or are a more aggressive honker, you might want to carry a little bike pump with you.
Anyways, if my experiences are any indication, having an air horn on your bike is by far the best way to reduce the number of close-calls and confrontations you have on a bike in Toronto.
I used a 12v drill battery to power Wolo maxi sound horns for my bicycle. The battery lasts long and the horn is very effective...and loud!
I largely agree with you. I'm about 99% with you in fact. My mantra since the beginning has always been "always assume they will do something bonkers". With that assumption and resulting awareness, I've had safe riding for years. Near misses are a rarity and usually the fault of both of us.
Yesterday though, I was cycling down church from bloor. Bloor street is still a mess, and I was relieved to be off it. Unfortunately, so were other drivers. I was getting cut off, crowded and just bullied in general by a number of cars. Traffic being what it is, I'd pass them, and then they'd bully again when passing me.
This nonsense didn't stop until I finally pulled out my day-glo orange u-lock and held it on my left, about half arms' length out. Magically, the traffic started respecting me. The worst offender, an SUV, was the most respectful of all. I made a show of putting the u-lock away and had no more troubles the rest of the way down church.
Anyway, point is, sometimes a little bit of tit-for-tat will keep you safe. I just wanted to put that out there.
People make judgements about other people within the 30 seconds of seeing them.
Same goes for motorists judging cyclists. I would wager that it was more the Day-Glo orange colour of the lock that caught motorists' attention in Dash's case than the actual threat of damage the lock was intended for. Did you mean "Tit-for-tat", or "see me, respect me, avoid me"?
Bright colours naturally trigger our brains, and we most readily identify yellow, amber, orange, and red as threat colours. So I would urge all cyclists to wear brightly coloured clothing and get reflectors, if not lights, for their bikes, so drivers can see them more readily and interpret that they are road users that mean business, and are sharing the road, visibly.
Without becoming a fashion cop, I have to say there are way too many cyclists that dress inappropriately for riding on busy streets, and that affects how they are interpreted by drivers. Many cyclists in Toronto can do better for themselves by making themselves more visible to other road users by wearing bright and reflective clothing for riding. This is one little step we can all take to improve the visibility and perception of cyclists.
Stay seen,
Brian
I am a big proponent of wearing bright clothing. In my travels I sport a yellow/orange construction vest and have felt that it offers me more space from motorists. However, I have also noticed that riding with a full knapsack on my back + the vest offers me lots more space and respect. I don't know if it's the dorkiness factor, or the fact that I looks extremely unusual (the vest isn't big enough to go over the pack, and the bottom of my bag kind of sticks out from under the vest), but it gives me more space I find than with just the vest on. Maybe it's because I look heavier, or people realize I'm a student? I don't know.
I've used the Air Zound and liked it. Its judicious use has in the past given pause to drivers about to do stupid and dangerous things. No need to be obnoxious to get attention. Never needed it more than a couple times a week.
Some limitations I've found:
But despite these limitatons the Air Zound is a simple, light weight, fairly inexpensive, practical device for three seasons a year.
However I'm (slowly) working on a 12V system to run a car horn and some LED lights from a battery. For the amount of honking I'd do and the length of time I need the lights for my commutes, quite a small sealed lead acid battery is adequate.
And in the winter the car horn will be as loud as, well, a car horn. Sounds just like one too for some reason, can't tell 'em apart. Much heavier than I'd want on a tour mostly due to the battery, but no biggie on my commuters. Horns, relay and battery will go unobtrusively in a small pannier attached to the front rack. Switch set and LED lights will be permanently mounted to each bike. Single multi-pin connector. At least that's the plan.
Don't worry about hearing damage from an occasional one second blast from a car horn mounted down by your forks. Constant noise from city traffic, or sometimes cranking your i-pod, will do much worse. Just don't mount it on your helmet!
That's the way to do it! Glad to see another inventor here on IBikeTO. Goodluck with the project. Just a suggestion though. There are some really good/cheap NiMh batteries at Active Surplus now. I used to use an SLA - 12 volts/7.2A to power my headlight, but I'm planning on switching to NiMh's. They're 5 bucks for 3.6 volts @ 4.5A. Also might be handy when I mount on a horn!