Riding two abreast - legal?
I saw two cyclists riding next to each other this morning going westbound on Kingston Road. There was light traffic so cars had two other lanes to choose from but I was wondering - does anyone know the law in Toronto on riding two abreast?
http://vehicularcyclist.com/hta2.html
A cyclist has to be as close to the curb as deemed safe or practical. Therefore the rider not doing so could be ticketed.
Wait a minute. How about taking the lane? Are there cases where that's illegal?
Sounds to me like it's open for interpretation and hopefully those doing the interpretation are fair. I suspect taking the lane in most cases where it is unsafe not to (narrow lanes, door zones) is OK. But if the lane is really wide (I've seen some that are as wide as a car lane plus parking/curb lane), I'm guessing you are expected to be further to the right since there is enough space for you to be passed safely.
All guesses, of course. I do what feels safest and figure if I'm ticketed I will fight the ticket and pay it if necessary. I don't think I'm doing anything that's going to get me a ticket though.
"Fail to ride single file" is covered by a City of Toronto by-law. The HTA allows municipalities to create traffic enforcement laws specific to their jurisdiction. The info the City has on its web site is dated with respect to fines, they have them ranging from $8.75 to $53.75. The only time I have heard of anyone being charged with it is after disobeying a cops request to ride single file.
I was once charged for failing to facilitate another vehicle in passing by turning out to the right.
I was riding on Richmond two abreast with a friend. A cop came by and asked us to ride single file. I was stupid and talked back. So we got stopped and I was ticketed, but not for "fail to ride single file" which is cheaper and a Toronto by-law (as Darren mentioned). Instead I was charged under the HTA and it carried a $110 fine.
I fought it. Cop showed up, it was rescheduled. Second date cop didn't show up so it was thrown out.
The moral: we could have gotten away with it if we just listened to the cop while in their sight. And no talk back.
Yesterday two people that I had passed at a previous intersection caught up to me at a redlight and im not sure if they knew what they were doing but proceeded to have one cyclist directly infront of me and the other directly to my left. I couldn't easily go around the cyclist in front of me nor move out of the way if someone tried to doorprize me.
Realising that this was someone on my left trying to pass the girl infront of me I waited for about 15 seconds for the guy on my left to take a suitable position. He didn't, he stayed in a formation with the girl that continued to box me in. So at the 15 second mark I dropped a profane word under my breath, looked behind me for traffic (which there was none) slammed the brake, switched into a high gear, hopped the streetcar track and ripped past those douchebags.
There is something so fullfilling with dropping assholes like that on the street using just your leg muscles.
In retrospect I could've started telling them they were awful riders (the guy blocking me especially) but for all I knew they didn't mean to do that to me and they are still learning right and wrong in bikelanes.
I think they got the idea I wasn't happy by how fast I went past them and how fast I continued to go in order to not see them again.
I'm sure drivers must feel the same way sometimes.
I drove up Bay Street on Saturday behind a "cyclist" who was doing all of 8kmh along the curbside. I remained patient of course, but he may have been showered in honks if another driver was involved.
Pat, there is a really neat trick you can do that is only available to cyclists. You simply tell the cyclists what your intentions are with words. In the rare instance that you come across a jerk that ignores you, simply pass them and when doing so give their handlebars a good shake :)
One thing I do not understand is how the guy blocked you.
Oh yes Darren that is good advice!! And what happens if when you shake his handlebars when he does not expect it and he wipes out. Not only will he get hurt and his bicycle may be damaged but you will be guilty of assault. During all my E-Bike vs cyclists debates I have never ever said that physical assault should be used as a solution. I am glad that the majority of the cyclists do not think the way you do.
Ken Finch
Ken I was not serious.... I guess I used the wrong emicon and should have used ;). You are absolutely right, a charge of assault would be the very least that would follow if you were to shake his handlebars.
The point I was serious about is that as cyclists we can communicate quite simply and effectively with one another with words.
Ok, I regress. I just do not believe in solving problems physically. I believe almost everything can be solved by negotiations, even if they get very heated there will be no physical damage. I just misunderstood and thought you were serious, sorry again.
Ken Finch
So, what have we learned from this discussion?
General principle: When something bad/irritating happens, try being polite and friendly. You may get what you want without a fight.
did you notice the :) at the end of that sentence? It means he was joking.
I might have asked the person blocking my lefthand to move if I hadn't been wearing headphones and the option of just passing the slow bugger wasn't so viable (no traffic). Not to mention I think he was doing it on purpose based on how he didn't deviate from the "box" formation with the girl. I wouldn't want to get into a argument with someone that ignorant/idiotic.
I prefer to not have to ask a cyclist to move and distract myself from the copious dangers around in downtown Toronto as well. Better in my opinion to just speed up and around the snail-pacers and newbies (and watch my ass for traffic while doing so).
Be creative.
You couldn't say "excuse me" because you were in your own world with a headphone barrier.
Could it be you pissed them off earlier and you didn't even realize it?
With that cyclist rage it's good you don't drive a car.
Expert advice in conflict resolution (given to me): Your best option is to rise above it.
People are always looking for things to build perceptions from their experiences - so give them the good stuff.
Conflicts are based on perceptions, when we allow them to be distorted, we do everyone a disservice.
That is one point to why I didn't say anything. One of many.
What about motorists who drive in a noise-cancelling cage while on cellphones while eating stuff. I've seen motorists do insane things that I've never seen a cyclist do.
As well excuse me doesn't work on people who are purposely/ignorantly causing you harm, as that cyclist was doing by boxing me in. Im not cycling around Toronto to educate other people on bicycles. I can't give lectures while I try to avoid my own mortality.
Anything is possible. Another point to make is why didn't they say anything when I "pissed them off", we stopped at a intersection before this happened and they never said a thing or even looked at me.
Cyclist rage?
Come on. Now I know you are biased.
No where have I shown that I have cyclist rage. Cycling past a mediocre cyclist is not cyclist rage.
Pat, you should perhaps keep Hanlon's Razor in mind when going about your daily life.
I didnt. If you actually read what I wrote instead of reading your own biases you would realise i did attribute his ignorance to his actions.
Got any more zingers for me?
Why doesn't "excuse me" work on people who are ignorantly causing you harm? I can see why it wouldn't work on people who are doing so purposefully, but accidentally?
It certainly works when people step on my foot by accident.
Love,
Passive Aggressive Peter
If I had to say excuse me for every cyclist I would be a nag horse.
If you were a avid cyclist like many on this site you would know "on your left" is the cyclist version of excuse me. I use this alot or just ring my bell.
Oh so sorry I didn't use this in this occasion.
A million apologies, im a terrible human being!
Now can you please go on a subject that isn't USELESS and personally attacking me?
Do you have a Ontario HTA reference for that?
I stand corrected...taking the lane is proper....I was quoting from an uncomfirmed US Source...MY BAD.... http://www.vcbike.org/bikelaw/bikelaw.htm#_IV._How_Far
Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:
(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656.[42] For purposes of this section, a “substandard width lane” is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.[43]
I will call this the “slow bicycle rule.” Although the slow bicycle rule is popularly understood to require bicyclists to ride as far to the right as possible for their own safety, that interpretation is much too restrictive.
How about using some Canadian references. Everything referenced, including the case law, is American. Not saying it is bad though somewhat biased, just that it may mislead and/or confuse.
I apologised at 11:10 AM and I will never post anything American again. LOL
Hi Folks...Happy Fathers Day!
As you know there was only one province with a pilot program for e-bikes(Ontario) and one province with a weight restriction (Alberta). As of July 1st Alberta is adopting the Federal Definition of E-Bikes and lifting the weight restriction.
Harmonizing the federal and provincial definitions for these vehicles will eliminate uncertainty in consumer transactions and add clarity to enforcement of the regulation.
Ontario Should be the leaders not the laggers when it comes to alternative and sustainable transportation options.
Will Ontario Join the TCU and others like them, to have the reputation of the ones who tried to "kill the electric bike"? Stay Tuned. Same Bat Time! Same Bat Channel.
http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType41/pro...
woops wrong forum..sorry...I was excited...LOL
Sorry Veloteq, thought you were replacing the previous info with the new link in the "11:10" post.
No problem Darrin. Sometimes not even Canadian References are appropriate for Ontario...LOL
If you had just admitted you were wrong earlier, we could have avoided this whole discussion.
Conversation closed.
Driver 8,
I don't know which stretch of Bay you were on. The section I travel has a diamond lane for bikes, taxi's and cyclists. I think it is only restricted M-F 7am -7pm so you would be allowed to travel in that lane on Saturday . But it is a 4 lane road. Why wouldn't you just move into the left lane and pass the slower moving "vehicle" as you would any other? The trick is to consider cyclists as VEHICLES and act accordingly.
I was north bound south of Dundas - heavy traffic and no room to pass.
Just so you know, I was fine puttering behind the slow cycle, probably because I usually travel by bike. My point was that I could see how another motorist would be less understanding travelling behind a slow moving bike / vehicle.
I must say I've never experienced that. Every time I've ever 'taken the lane', motorists have always patiently puttered along behind me until I was able to get out of the way to let them pass. I've been quite lucky I suppose.
For the record, bay street is particularly intimidating (to me anyway). Good on you for catering to the cyclist's concerns.
So true, Ontario has always chosen the path less traveled when it comes to some things... eBikes for example. My Canada apparently doesn't include Ontario. lol.
Hey Tom,
That section of Bay St., between Queen and Dundas, is one of the worst peices of pavement in the city. The curb lane is a butt buster at any speed, but hit some of those ruts the wrong way and you'll be thrown into the path of cars. That may explain the slow speed of the cyclist and why they would ride far out from the curb. Still, when you come up behind farm equipment (slow moving vehicle) on a rural road, it can take a while before there is an opportunity to pass safely and you just have to suck it up and wait. Same thing applies to bikes downtown. Thankfully you aren't one of those drivers who is more important than anyone else on the road.
Just wanted to make that point in case others felt you were doing some act of kindness instead of what is legally required of drivers.
This might be the section of Ontario's HTA that requires cyclists to keep right:
Exception
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a driver of a,
(a) vehicle while overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction;
(b) vehicle while preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway; or
(c) road service vehicle. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 147 (2).
Claire
My original comment was intended to relate the frustration that a cyclist has with being slowed down (by another cyclist) - and surely drivers feel the same way at times.
To your point, this rider seemed to be taking his sweet time, and was less concerned with the traffic he was holding up.
I do find the descriptions of Gillibrand's immigration views to be troubling, but I'm hopeful that (as a smart pol) she will be responsive to the concerns of her newly enlarged constituency. As for gun rights, sorry, folks, but an individual right to bear arms exists under the Second
Dissertatio AND Courseworkns AND Thesis Help