Do you think e-bikes should be restricted in where they can travel?

As an advocate of e-bikes of all kinds, and yes scooter style as well I was invited to Transport Canada today to talk about the benefits of e-bikes, which I won't bore you with. I talked with about 300 people from all walks of life. I would have to say that 95% understood the benefits once the presentation was over, while 5% walked away mumbling. Not bad since I learned many years ago nothing is 100%. Ask 100 people what they think of Ford Trucks and you will 50% saying they are junk and the other 50% saying they are the best trucks in the world. That is why there is chocolate and vanilla.

What was this meeting, I thought the Ministry had the meeting scheduled for June 16?

Ken Finch

i ride a Boao from www.jademark.com and a dreeam ryder, and can pedal both
boao is 74kg and dream ryder is 94kg pedaling is fine not sure what others say you can't

If you find a scooter you can't pedal they should not be sold as a power assisted bicycle

if you can what then?

This had nothing to do with that meeting Ken...I was invited in by Transport Canada as part of "an awareness" campaign for sustainable transportation options.
I have three others scheduled before the June 16th meeting. The bikes safety records were proven long before the pilot program. It would be rediculous to ban e-bikes across Ontario because of "red herrings" spewed out by a few people.
I suggest at this point, keep cool, relax and don't worry...I certainly would not want the reputation of being the one who tried to fight against a sustainable option for driving on a year where the mandates are concentrated on promoting sustainable transportation options. The Ontario Government also does not want that reputation, especially this year. Why certain organizations would want this on their resume is unbelievable.

Saying you can pedal a 94kg e-bike is like holding your breath under water and calling it scuba diving - you can't do either for very long.

I guess nobody on this site read the 2002 DOT reference to the two styles of ebikes being evaluated for Canada. One was power assist and the other called power on demand which allowed the riders the option of not pedalling. According to their studies there were too many people that would not choose an open frame e-bike to replace their car but would consider an e-bike that didn't need pedalling, and since the purpose of the evaluation was to deter people from using their car for short commutes offering the two choices was decided upon. As well both were deemed to be as safe as a bicycle. Motor Boats have to have Oars, by Law....and rowing a motor boat would be like holding your breath under water and calling it scuba diving.

Oh, I see, Motor Boats have oars and e-bikes have pedals, what does that prove?

More to the point, I would ask, if you could consider a motor boat a canoe because it could be paddled?

OK, thanks. I like my E-Bike, it has saved me money, time and knee and back pains many times over. I also would hate to have spent the almost $2000.00 on it then only be able to use it for 2 riding seasons, $1000.00 per season would be a tad on the expensive side. But if I can keep riding it then it is a reasonably inexpensive option for me and others. I figure with proper maintenance and upkeep my E-bike should last at least 5 or more years easily.

Ken Finch

Tom

It is fine to be a die hard cyclist, but to object to another alternative to driving, that works towards the same goal of more bike paths and safer bike paths, that works towards the same one less car on the road goal is nothing short of rediculous especially coming from cyclists. I speak to the masses Tom, about e-bikes and fortunately those who object are a small minority and usually because they do not have all the facts. Speaking of boats, up at the cottage there are similar arguments from boaters. There are those who sail and those who motor. Most get along fine, but there is always a couple of morons that do not respect the others choice.

Veloteq,

My only issue is allowing scooter stlye e-bikes on Bike Paths.

The fact that somebody decided to put pedals on an electric scooter to get it recognized as a Bike is a contentious issue.

I'll share the road with anything, and I prefer e-bikes to cars, compacts to SUVs, etc..

Well Tom, I believe anything heavier then a standard bicycle with no cargo bags attached should be on the bike paths in our parks. But the bike lanes are a totally different issue. The bike lanes do not have pedestrians, toddlers, dogs or any other non cyclists in them. E-Bikes whatever style should be able to use the bike lanes but not the bike paths. That is my opinion (good or bad).

Ken Finch

here is how you do it.

http://www.ibiketo.ca/forum/advocacy/physically-separated-bike-lanes

The frame underneath the cosmetic fairings is certainly not a scooter frame. It was designed especially for this product. So pedals were not attached to a scooter to circumvent any law. There are many hoops the manufacturers had to comply with before getting them passed.
A traditional bicycle frame was not strong enough to support a battery, a headlight, turn signals and brake lights as well as other additions. A scooter frame would be way to heavy. An alternative was desperately needed, because bicycles alone do not attract a large enough audience to deter the maximum amount of motorists to switch, so any alternative should be a welcome one. I agree 100% that cycling is a great alternative, and disagree 100% that e-bikes should be banned off of bike lanes, and really am shocked that certain members of the TCU do not see this. I understand it is congested in certain areas......but to call for a provincial ban is ludicrous.

While separated bike lanes are a great feature in certain situations, there are limits to their use & implementation.

Most accidents happen in intersections, and studies have shown that separated bike lanes can actually increase collisions of this sort. Cyclists have to leave the confines of a separated lane at an intersection and are not as mobile or aware at the point where the separated lane terminates; NYC has introduced separate bicycle signals to address this challenge.

Space is also limited in the city centre, and there is often no room for a divided lane. If an arterial road could be reclaimed and dedicated for cyclists that would be fantastic – but I don’t think we’re there yet.

Yes, separated lanes would be a good addition given the right circumstances, but you don't "have" to create this type of infrastructure to increase the number of cyclists.

I agree 100% that cycling is a great alternative, and disagree 100% that e-bikes should be banned off of bike lanes, and really am shocked that certain members of the TCU do not see this.

I am not sure you interpret the TCU's position on e-bikes correctly. Can you help me and tell what exactly they were saying - just in case they do not ask for that "100% that e-bikes should be banned off of bike lanes".....

Maybe I am far to simple, but I have yet to come across bad feelings/blood between E-scooter/E-bike/bicycle riders here in Guelph.

Any time I have had to ride my E-scooter into the downtown of Guelph via the bike lanes, I passed a few bicycle riders who were just out on a lazy tour. I stayed behind the cyclest until it was safe to leave the bike lane to pass.....passed and re-entered the bake lane.

I have no issue staying off the MUP's here in town, as it seems like such a non issue to me. I enjoy my time out and about quietly roaming the city.

I have often wanted to again buy an MTB for off road and MUP rides, but my bad knee will not allow for such a joy. As my last MTB ride to work a few years back left me stuck on the grass between a sidewalk and the road, calling for a friend to use his pick up to save me.

I think it's more we all have to learn to share what is available to use, step outside our own personal view for a second and try to see others points of view.

I'm am all for getting more people out of Car's and SUV's ( save for Car's like NEV's), and onto a Bicycle/E-bike/E-scooter!!! In the long run does it not serve the planet better to move around a city not blasting it with exhuast fume......and leaving the smell of Lilac in the air where it should be! ( it's that time of year again when Lilac's are blooming).

As I said maybe I am too simple to see why the addition of a battery powered small watt motor to a bicycle, or plastic housing and an outward scooter look has caused such a fuss. If anything I think it's a cause to be happy.....people are out and about and not burning gas getting where there going!!!

My pleaure.....LOL
Below is a quote from their website....

The bike union does not wish to see these vehicles banned, but does not believe they should be classified as bicycles. This new breed of motorized vehicles will require clear guidelines to govern their use - the bike union believes that they have no place in bike lanes, park paths, or parked on sidewalks.

Here's where it is hypocrital...The bike union does not wish to see these vehicles bannned...They just don't believe they should be in the bike lanes, park paths or parked on sidewalks.

These bikes are only capable of 32 km per hour determined a safe cycling speed by the DOT back in 2000. The motors are 500 watts, because it is similar to what a human exerts by pedalling to achieve 32 km per hour. To ride in mainstream traffice they would have to keep up with traffic changing the entire dynamics of what the product is....It would no longer be an e-bike it would be an electric motorcyle, with insurance and licence and registration.

Ebike riders do not want to go fast...they just want an option to their gas guzzling expensive car for short commutes. My wife would never in a million years let me buy a motorcycle, and yet she has no problem with me on my e-bike going to the corner store. My option is my truck.

They are also oblivious to the fact that they have coexisted in BC for 6 years and have integrated nicely. It sadly only Ontario where the pilot for these even existed. Why? Because of the same mentality.

What qualifications do a bunch of kids have to question a 3 year pilot program that not only was succesful here in Ontario but in other provinces as well for the last 5 years. It is another option to a car, and a cycling union is objecting to this?

Guelph Rider

There is an article today in the Toronto Sun regarding E-Bikes in the Green Planet Section.
I agree with you as well that I don't get the sense of bad blood on the road as well except
from certain people in certain organizations. In February they invoke their members feelings but in June they ask their members what they think...Should have been the reverse.

http://www.torontosun.com/life/greenplanet/2009/06/06/9695...

They talk about the different styles and the benefits of each. I find it mind boggling that a cycling union of all organizations would object to another alternative to cars as well. To lobby against these on bike lanes is to ask for them to be banned period, which I don't think they grasp.
To be in with cars, they would have to go faster and these are not built for that kind of speed. Underneath the plastic they are half the size. So you and I would have to park these in the garage, and buy a limited speed motorcycle or worse yet, a full blown motorcycle. I don't know about you, but I just want an inexpensive electric bike to replace my truck for my short commutes to work, to the store, to visit friends in the area. I have grown out of my need for speed. The reason cyclist want the lightest bikes with the most gears is because they are easier to pedal and they can go very fast. You and I growing up had heavy bikes with no gears. Later in life i got a 3 speed and that was a score. I pedalled longer than some people have been on the planet, and they wonder why we are objecting to their outrageous posts. I love my e-bike, as much as they love their bicycle, and I have certainly paid more taxes in my life than they have, so you are damn right I will fight this one to the end. You can blow out a candle but you can't blow out a fire. I am personally involved in Smart Commute Programs, Pollution Probe Clinics bringing awarenss to motorists that there are options out there, and they want to close this down? In the clinics there is always one or two cyclists that "have the attitude". Fortunately their co-workers are there to put them in their place once they start. One guy got seriously reamed by his boss after I left, for his ignorant comments and behaviour. I have 55 years of experiences, 3 successfull businesses and the wisdom to know the difference. Some of these kids are just starting out and have alot to learn.

"Kids"? Is that some sort of rhetorical bull shit that you deliver from your rocking chair Grandpa?

Just to reassure you, there are some pretty sound issues at the heart of this debate.

Consider the following:
- E-Bikes are essentially challenging the definition of what we consider a bicycle; where do you draw the line? Sticking pedals on an electric powered scooter does not make it a bicycle.
- There are a host of other interests to be served by introducing a motorized vehicle into a cycling network. Who is going to profit by the sale of these machines, and what effect are those parties having on the key decision makers?
- The network of cycling paths and lanes in Toronto is terribly underdeveloped. To have to share this scarce resource with another form of transportation does arouse concern in the minds of people who have fought so long and hard to get what little cycling infrastructure we have.

So there you have it, these are not the ramblings of “kids"; it's just reasonable conjecture.

Lets get this group going, what are you waiting for E-bike riders join up for our own club.

http://www.meetup.com/Electric-Bicycles

Ken Finch

Quoted for truth.

It depends if its a power-assisted bicycle, or a scooter that cannot be practically pedalled

I bicycle to work very day. I am of two minds on ebikes.

I helped my mother buy an ebike at Christmas. You can hardly tell it is not a bike. It is power assisted. She can pedal, have assistance or ride it like a moped. It was a good investment for her. Her knees are bad and she has real trouble riding on hills (a concern in BC). She will not ride a bike anymore. She rides her ebike to the store and with my nephews. I think it is great.

I can even see myself getting an ebike one day. If my knees ever went I would buy an ebike in a minute. I would substitute it for my daily bike commute and would still use the Martin Goodman Trail. I would still be a bicycle advocate, still be a member of the TCU and feel it was the right decision for me.

On the otherhand, I get passed on my way home from work every day by a woman who rides what looks like a Harley. She has two huge saddlebags and a windshield. It is larger than a Vespa. I don't think she should be on the Martin Goodman Trail. Because of its size, it is a moped or even a motorcycle.

To me then size is what should be the determining factor. I would be against making them illegal, but am also against the large ones being considered a bicycle. The laws on ebikes need fine tuning

The problem with that option is that we don't know how the people who chose it would have responded for each style, and they make up a big proportion of the sample. It would have been better to run two separate polls, one for each style of e-bike.

A poll or focus group can be influenced so easily by limited the number of choices. The photograph used in the TCU questionaire was the largest e-bike they could find. Mine is a scooter style and it is half the size and not nearly as threatening and much more streamlined.
To pedal or not to pedal, that is the question? As a cyclist I was able to coast all the way to school about 3 km because of the decline without pedalling, and of course lots of pedalling uphill on the way home.
There is no pedalling law that dictates I have to pedal. When a cyclist coasts it is exactly what we are doing and at the exact same speed.
I asked a retailer in BC if there was a similar group that objected when scooter style first came out there 6 years ago, and he said, if there was, it was before blogging so he wasn't really aware of any. The owner said he has sold through his dealerships in BC over 3000 scooter style e-bikes. His customers average age is between 45 - 55. He understands why kids wouldn't want one. Kids want speed. A retailer in Hamilton has also sold over 300 bikes this year already and his average age he claims is also around 50.
Another option to driving, and the only reason one could object is because they like objecting.

Tom...Again with the "Sticking pedals on an electric powered scooter does not make it a bicycle."
Nobody did any such a thing.The frame underneath the covering bears no resemblance to a scooter frame. You are confused because of the outward appearance. We could take the same covering and put it on a tricycle... I don't know anyone who calls them a bicycle. They are e-bikes which are legal and have been for years now. There are two styles, openframe and scooterstyle e-bikes and they fall under the "power assisted bicycle" act. Just when you think we are making progress we go back 3 years. SHORT RECAP....DOT made power assist and power on demand legal. Pedalling not necessary...MTO approved...Amendmant to law changed wording from primarily to capable of. Bill 126 had opportunity to change back wording...Didn't....end of story....

The pedals would put there for a reason, but it wasn't for pedalling. They were put on so they could qualify under a definition, even the MTO acknowledged this:

The ministry has become aware of scooter-style vehicles that technically meet the pilot's e-bike definition, but not the intent, as they are not primarily operated by muscular power due to their heavy weight.

What other motorized vehicles should we allow on Bike Paths?

In 2001, Transport Canada amended the Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations to allow the introduction of
power-assisted bicycles in Canada. Power-assisted bicycles are electric bicycles propelled by either a
combination of the cyclist and a motor or by the motor alone. Previously, these bicycles were classified
as limited-speed motorcycles; however, they did not meet the safety standards for limited-speed
motorcycles, and were therefore not for sale in Canada.

You left out the rest of the quote:

**Therefore, in addition to evaluating how safely the e-bike can integrate with other motor vehicles, bicycles and pedestrians, the emergence of the scooter-style e-bikes requires the ministry to also assess if the pilot's original intent continues to be appropriate. The ministry will clarify its position on the original intent of the pilot when final legislation is drafted.
**
If the original intent continues to be appropriate....was the key line....Bill 126 had an opportunity to change the wording from "capable of" back to "primarily" and they did not.
Why are people fighting another alternative to cars...I don't get it? More Choices for people Tom...
The pedals are functional and are often used to take the stress of the battery on steep hills.
We are attracting a market of motorists that would not switch to a regular pedal bike...I am on your side...I wished everyone would pedal but a large market cannot or chooses not to.

To coast or to pedal is not a concern to the Ministry...It is about limiting speed to 32 km per hour and not exceeding a 500 watt motor which is the same energy a human exerts when pedalling...Hardly a motor...it replicates a humans natural energy and pursuedes them to leave their car at home for short commuting...it is a good thing...

Well Tom the Ministry knew about the scooter style E-Bikes for 3 years before they started the 3 year pilot program because they were in BC for that long. The only reason the Ministry posted that phrase on their website was to give the elitest cyclists something to debate about instead of how they are such angels on our roads and how they are so treated unfairly by automobiles and pedestrians.

I rode downtown and back Saturday from my volunteer work and I counted 15 cyclists breaking traffic laws. One rider continuously completely blew through red lights even after I passed him and yelled to him that he is breaking the law and has to stop at traffic lights. Even the automobiles were blowing their horns at him for riding full speed through the red lights.

I also saw 6 E-bike riders, I only saw one do a rolling stop. I was too far behind in traffic to catch up to him to remind him to stop at stop lights. By the way this was on Danforth Avenue between Coxwell and Victoria Park.

So do not tell me the manufactures are getting away with something when they are not. If they were the MTO would not of approved them, because the MTO was very aware of them.

http://www.ebikeriders.com/
Ken Finch

I think the PAB definition in the HTA amendments called for a requirement that it could be pedalled. So compliance came in the form of pedals that might as well be ornamental on a scooter style e-bike.

One question: Can we keep the 'elitist cyclists' comments off these pages from now on? It only serves to insult people; same goes for "kids".

I think the PAB definition in the HTA amendments called for a requirement that it could be pedalled. So compliance came in the form of pedals that might as well be ornamental on a scooter style e-bike.

One question: Can we keep the 'elitist cyclists' comments off these pages from now on? It only serves to insult people; same goes for "kids".

Well I will stop using the elitest comments off when the cyclists on this forum stop calling E-Bikes anything but Power Assisted Bicycles or E-Bikes, that is their name and classification and nothing else. No name calling on both sides, that is only fair if not the problem will still exist. I only call bicycles bicycles and I call bicycle riders cyclists.

Ken Finch

My post was meant to address the term "kids" that was used in another post, and the derogatory implication that those who were challenging the decision re: e-bikes, were immature or childish.

The fact that you’re engaging my comments now does seem to validate my point, but I don't want to go over the same arguments again and again.

Tom

I certainly understand the cycling community not wanting to call these vehicles "bicycles" and I have no problem calling them e-bikes..I prefer that name. We just want Ontario to catch up to BC in that they have integrated so nicley with both the cycling communities and the government right from the start. Ontario should have been the leader of this "alternative" not the laggers. Below is an example how their insurance and licencing commission introduced them 6 years ago in BC...I am all for bicycles and do not mean to insult the community by promoting this alternative, but that is all it is, an alternative to driving. One that reaches another market altogether. Nobody slapped pedals on a scooter...I find that line always insulting.

http://www.icbc.com/registration-licensing/specialty-vehic...

And as a result of its limited speed...the bike lanes is the ONLY place they can ride. To ban these in those lanes is a ban on the entire alternative across the province...if they went faster they would be called a moped or a motorcycle.

I would like your opinion on BC's interpretation and Ontarios interpretation on the same bike.
Same country, same bike, different attitudes...Why do you think this is Tom?

http://www.icbc.com/registration-licensing/specialty-vehic...

I can't see any stark differences but it could have something to do with the fact that Vancouver has a better bike network; their cycling infrastructure is way ahead of Toronto's.

I wonder if there are more 'scooter style' e-bikes now than there were in BC six years ago? As I've said before, I think this is the crux of the debate.

Do you know if BC has any restrictions on Path use for e-bikes?

Not to my knowledge...I would hope common sense dictates that some paths are not cool. I do not use any paths myself for the routes I take, and I can certainly understand not wishing them on certain paths. On my 13 km ride to work I am along Sheppard Ave going east when the rest of the world is going west, so my world is much different than someone elses world. After hours, living in the suburbs, I am riding to the store along side streets. I never have any problems, nor do Ihave any altercations with anyone. I can see however how certain areas would be a different story. I guess I am not talking about those. LOL It was 5 years ago where I first saw these scooter style e-bikes in BC.

and I have been patiently waiting since then...lol

I have an e-bike that I use to pick my mail up each morning and do a quick run down to the corner store.If you ban me the use of bike lanes and bike paths I will fire up the ol 4.0L V6 and drive.
Way to go spandexders you're fighting against the wrong people.

Cyclists are very passionate about their choice.
E-Bikers are very passionate about their choice.

Some Cyclists do not think scooter style e-bikes should be on paths or bike lanes.
E-Bikers can legally ride only on paths or bike lanes, so without this privilege..they are history,
along with potential future technology being developed as a result

If certain people were successful they would be socially responsible for being the only province (besides alberta) that is blocking another great alternative to driving.
Less choices to automobiles equals more people driving...I understand it may not be THEIR choice, but it is anothers choice... to driving.

This cycling union seems to be taking an impressively counterproductive stand. Is there an alternative cycling group that I can support? I cycle on a non-powered bike and am of the opinion which seems to be shared by the majority that if you are sufficiently slow and vulnerable please come and join me so that we can achieve a level of utilisation that justifies more bike lanes and paths.

This seems to be one of those everybody wins type situations that only a truly dogmatic cyclist would object to.

To me then size is what should be the determining factor. I would be against making them illegal, but am also against the large ones being considered a bicycle. The laws on ebikes need fine tuning.

Another QFT.
(Quoted for truth.)

There are lots of electric canoes out there and I would consider them to be canoes, not motor boats. Let's keep apples with apples and oranges with (electric) oranges.

Hi Tom... read up on the fight about the Galloping Goose Trail on the Island... Mostly a bunch of seniors that lobbied long and hard to get electric bikes permitted on the Goose. Where they were banned before, they are now permitted.
Cycling in Regional Parks and Trails

Not sure about the ministrys original intent but I know what the Minister (Donna Cansfield at the time) told me when we were introduced... That "they" had only labeled it a "pilot" to pacify objections that "they" thought might surface. But that by them (several months after the pilot period had begun) they had received nothing but positive responses. Cansfield actually had owned an ebike for some time that she had kept parked in her garage until it was legal. Must ask her if she has been getting any use out of it now! Also at the time we spoke she said she forgave me for riding around for so many years on an illegal vehicle (grin)
tks
loC