Perceptions
The CBC reports that the pedestrian committee is working to close a loophole that allows e-bikes on sidewalks. This makes sense, as e-bikers must be adults, and the intention of the bylaw was to allow children to ride on sidewalks.
I find that my perception of e-bikes is influenced by whether the e-bike looks like a bicycle, or looks like a motorcycle/scooter. I recently saw a bicycle-style e-biker motoring her way down the sidewalk on Queen street, and most people didn't seem to care. The other day, I was passed rather closely by a motorcycle-style e-bike in the bike lane, but was glad that he sounded his bell/horn to alert me to his presence. I don't personally have a problem with e-bikes using bike lanes, and am rather dismayed that the Bike Union has taken an opposing position. A 32 km/h top speed e-bike is much nicer to share the roads with than more cars!
However, monkey see = monkey do. It looked like a motorcycle using the bike lane. After this a real motorcycle decided to use the bike lane to pass congestion, which I do have a problem with as their speed is not limited, and can actually pose a danger.
Obviously many motorists are not clued in to the existence of e-bikes yet as I saw an e-bike travelling down the middle of the lane on Eastern Avenue, which would surely evoke honking rage if it was a bicycle travelling the same speed (regardless of the speed of traffic at that time).
What do you think? Do you think that perceptions of e-bikes are different whether they look like a bicycle, or look like a motorcycle or scooter?
Comments
Whether it looks like a scooter or not is irrelevant. No bikes on sidewalks should be the law, except of course for children. Perception is why certain people feel threatened by scooter style e-bikes.
Example:
Cyclist riding on sidewalk at 12 km per hour and behind him on the **exact same bicycle ** covered with a cosmetic covering to make it look like a motorcycle doing the exact same speed, and of course the "motorcycle on the sidewalk" would be perceived as much more dangerous.
Even though 5 pounds of plastic is all we added to the bike, which by the way would actually make the bike less dangerous because the plastic fairings would work as a "crush zone".
True, but the answer to this problem is absolutely nothing on the sidewalks but pedestrians, children on child bikes and such, strollers, mobility scooters and wheelchairs. Bicycles, E-Bikes any style, skate boarders, roller skaters all belong in the bike lanes or on the side of the road.
But on the other side of the coin pedestrians should stay on the sidewalks and cross at crosswalks.
Pedestrians should not walk on the side of the road or in the bike lane when there is a sidewalk they can use. Also they should not jay walk or cross in the middle of the road.
Ken Finch
As I see it, e-bikes are simply the modern analog of gasoline style mopeds - both are powered by a small engine and both could be pedaled; The reality is that nobody pedals either one around.
Why our gov't went back and essentially reclassified a "moped" as a bicycle is beyond me. It probably has more to do with politics than common sense. Moped drivers are licensed and regulated to certain roads for good reasons. Reasons that we have already established, are those reasons no longer valid?
Is an e-bike much different than another limited speed vehicle such as a scooter or a moped? My perceptions say no, not really.
Tanya, you wrote "A 32 km/h top speed e-bike is much nicer to share the roads with than more cars!" but that isn't the issue in the article you cited. The issue is sharing your cramped bike lanes/multi-use pathways with them. Though the part about a motorcycle following an e-biker into the bike lane was a great allegory for the slippery slope we're about to go down.
Electric
First...A moped goes much faster than the alloted 32 km per hour, so an e-bike is not a a modern day moped. Second....If you read the Department of Transportations definition back in 2002, there are two styles they are introducing, one that is power assist and one that is power on demand....that is not required to be pedalled.
Extensive safety studies were done years in advance of the pilot program and e-bikes (both styles) were evaluated as safe at least as a bicycle for many reasons. i know this is a bike forum and you guys are die hard cyclists, but they don't fo fast, they are a great alternative and it is mind boggling why a cyclist let alone an cycling organization would request a ban across Ontario. Anyone with the slightest vision sees that these are a more than welcome alternative. A hundred years from now when e-bikes and e-cars and bicycles rule the world, some people will be able to say...Your Great Grandmother tried to ban these you know....theres a legacy.
Looking at the voting on CBC, it seems apparent the voting is against Yvonnes dream of banning e-bikes on paths. If I was her advisor I would advise to immediately pull back and retract her statement. I am not sure the TCU wishes this negative attention, especially when just starting out. Just my opinion of course, oh yeah and alot of other peoples too. Not that you have a chance of getting e-bikers on your side, I think the damage is done time and time again it seems. I recommend E-bikers form their own separate union anyways since the TCU has made their opinion loud and clear. They will never be on your side. www.durhamebikeassociation.org would be a good place to start. They have a great following and are non profit. Truly in it for the love of the product.
I noticed that the article features a picture of a bicycle fitted with an electric motor - and not the scooter style e-bike.
I my opinion, this discrepancy is where the whole debate rests.
Interesting story with the motorcycle using a bike lane to get by, but I don't like that at all. I think that bike lanes should be exculsively used by zero-emission transport only.
I would second that emotion: no emission transportation in Bike Lanes. That includes police horses.
I think a lot of the ire against e-bikes comes from the simple fact that most of us dislike having to share our bike lanes with people who are too weak and lazy to move themselves under their own power. It gets masked under arguments about safety and whatever else, but at the core of it I think a lot of us feel that if you're too lazy and out of shape to actually pedal and actually put some work in to get where you're going, you don't deserve to be in the bike lane.
I'll at least admit it, but I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels this way.
If you're going to cite "studies" please provide links. Otherwise i'm just dismissing the "results" of those "studies" as rhetoric.
Bobby, if I limit my moped to 32 km/h can I call it an e-bike??? what? why not??
Yeah you're right, gee I guess they're soooo different. Excuse me for not noticing.
E-bikes are a good alternative just like a moped is, so lets remove the limiter and allow them to travel above 32km/h like they're designed to. E-bikes are full capable of doing this, just like a "real" moped - just wait until the next round of battery tech... they'll be capable of going even faster and further.
Norma,
Sorry to burst your bubble but a few e-bikers voting down other peoples comments on the CBC isn't really meaningful...
Poor Yvonne though, really, I wouldn't want to put up with the venom that group of e-bike owners and profiteers is spitting.
Maybe you'd like to redeem your comment and say something relevant to the perception of e-bikes in Toronto?
Again Electric I will repeat, obviously you do not understand or know about electric vehicle design or technology. Even if I could go take the electronic governor off of my E-Bike the fastest speed I would gain is maybe a few kmh. So I would go from 32kmh to possibly 35-38kmh. It is not just the electronic governor that limits the E-bikes speed. It is the voltage of the battery pack, the power of the motor, the weight, wind, etc. The ministry picked a 500watt motor because its maximum power output ungoverned is within a small percentage of the 32-38kmh maximum capability. The controller then electronically limits it further to 32kmh. All E-Bike are designed from the ground up for that speed. If it was very easy to mod these E-Bikes to go faster then they would not have been approved for our roads. I have been studying the E-Bikes technology and I have become to realize they are custom designed for the MTO. So study and learn electronics, mechanics, fluid dynamics and study the E-Bike underlying technology before stating E-Bikes can go faster easily. Which they cannot without a major redesign and expensive parts added. That is why cyclist can and do ride faster then E-Bikes, because cyclists are not limited in speed and sometimes use that to ride at dangerous and unnecessary speeds in the wrong places (bike paths and sidewalks and in bike lanes with slower cyclists). Here is a link to an LEV website to help you learn something useful, http://visforvoltage.org
Ken Finch
Bobby, if I limit my moped to 32 km/h can I call it an e-bike??? what? why not??
No for so many reasons...one being it is gas and the other because it does not have the sticker from the manufacturer depicting what it is in both official languages...Sorry dont have time to links to the the law but they are readily available by googling...
Sorry to burst your bubble Electric (absolutely the wrong name for you, because obviously you do not know how electric items work) but a few elitest cyclists on a forum will not change the rest of Ontario and MTO decisions. The MTO decided to accept E-Bikes of all styles because of their previous safety record in other parts of Canada and during the Pilot Program and by there design which has many more safety features built in then a standard bicycle does (in fact a bicycle does not come standard with the MTO required safety features, bells, headlights and tail lights or reflectors). All other cyclists accept us reasonably well, just a few outspoken individuals and a union leader with no aspirations to look no further then Toronto in her scope about the cyclists agenda in Ontario. Toronto is only a small part of Ontario. We should not be basing all of Ontario's cycling agendas and rules on just one small portion of the province and one small union compared to the rest of Ontario's cycling population.
Ken Finch
Rich
I can't believe you said that? From that comment I know you are very young so I will go easy on you.
Anyone in a car, on a motorcyle, on a bus you are calling too weak and lazy? That would be like saying a cyclist is too lazy to walk or run. Since when is our transportation to work or in some cases school, our excercise time? There are people who ride their e-bikes to the golf course, to the gym and to work where they get lots of physical excercise. Biking while good excercise certainly is not the only excercise option out there. If I was sitting at desk all day I would probable want to ride my bicycle instead of my e-bike. Not every one sits at desks. Some people prefer a full body excercise.
Try rowing....That's my choice. My e-bike is simply my transportation alternative when I do not need my truck. My goal is to turn around the TCU and any other bike union to respect another persons choice. At the moment I think motorists, cyclists and pedestrians are watching the media and the TCU's stance on e-bikes and the majoirty disagree wholeheartily. Granted some paths are congested....Most are not, and are capable of transporting thousands and thousands of people to and from work without a car. Clean and Green and why shouldn't there be choices?
Let me preface by saying that I don't see a solution that is going to satisfy everyone, some form of compromise is going to be necessary. Whether that's drivers putting up with slower e-bikes in their lane or cyclists dealing with faster ones in theirs, is to be determined.
My personal objection is about the weight and speed. Yes, I've seen the arguments about how some e-bikes' weights are not that different. But the speed is something I do see changing the feel of bike lanes. Right now, most any bike has the capability of going 32 km/h or more. However, the number of folks actually maintaining that speed constantly in the bike lane is relatively few. Couple that with some of these units being much heavier than a standard bike and I get a little nervous. Would I like to see e-bikes banned from bike lanes/paths? At this point, yes. But also at this point I realize that compromise may be required and truth be told, I need to do more research before I start saying my opinion should be made in to legislation. (Which is not to say the others posting here are in the same boat)
But really, I see this whole argument as an unfortunate waste of energy that could be much better directed elsewhere. For example, how much does it matter whether there are e-bikes in the College Street bike lanes or not if there are cars and courier vans parked in them? How useful are bike lanes placed in the door zone? How useful are bike lanes filled with snowbanks?
Seems to me the anti-bike faction of Council would like nothing more than to see us battling straw men like this rather than holding their feet to the fire.
toddtyrtle
My objection to bicycles could be their speed, which a young inexperienced rider can achieve easily, posing both threats to pedestrians and to cars swerving to miss them. Despite my objections the answer is not to ban kids on bicycles, nor would it be to put limiters on their bikes so they couldn't travel faster than 20 km per hour until they are older. Even then, should a cyclist be allowed to ride at breakneck speeds downhill so they could make it up the other side without pedalling. I may object to alot of things, but to wish a ban on another alternative to driving that attracts another market altogether. One less car on the road. That should be a common goal between both of us.
Fortunately in my travels, I find 80% are more open and understanding and even excitied about this alternative. It really is the odd die hard cyclist that seems to object. I understand that some paths are conjested but there are many that are not. Many e-bikers also use their e-bikes in many small towns where everything is 2 km away. To ask for a ban in Ontario because of congestion downtown is not a well thought out plan. More paths are needed...Use e-bikers as an ally to get what you want since we want the same thing. When I started e-biking I never considered cyclists objecting to my choice, and in most cases they don't..It is just certain posters that do not get it, and are bothered whether someone pedals or not. It doesn't bother me when cyclists are coasting and not pedaling. Viva la difference!
I agree Todd, it's a waste of energy for cyclists to argue with e-cyclists when we both have the same larger interests. We both want more and better cycling infrastructure.
I have no fears of heavier e-bikes behind me, I know it's a false perception that they will ram me since there have been no incidents of this happening.
Let's keep the idea that cycling is dangerous to others out of here.
Thanks for your input Toddtyrtle, it is much appreciated by all. Yes on both sides there needs to be compromises if we are ever going to move into the future beyond this to a better cycling future. I would rather talk about real cycling problems like auto vs E-Bike/bicycle/pedestrian safety issues. And also public school bicycle education programs implimented in the Primary schools. But for some reason whenever that topic is brought up none of the cyclists want to discuss it (is it not as debatable/argueable enough for their tastes).
Ken Finch
A lot of the arguments against e-bikes refer to the 32km/hr speed, but none of the e-bikers I've seen (admitedly, not that many, though maybe I'm just not paying attention) have been going anywhere close to this speed. Was this by choice - they were going at the same speed as the slower cyclists (and, given the congestion, the cars) around them, or are there mechanical reasons why an e-cyclist might not continually cruise along at 32km/hr on flat roads?
AnnieD
To achieve greater range, I personally throttle along at around 22 or 23 km per hour. Just like a car gets bad gas mileage going 110 or 120 an e-bike battery operates similar. Full throttling all the time drains your battery quicker and therefore your range decreases. Plus, just like a cyclist if you look ahead and see a red light or a green light, it may determine the speed you wish to travel. If there is a red light up ahead, i tend to slow down so that by the time i reach the light it's green, They are very similar to riding a bike but your legs are not the motor. It costs me 15 cents to travel 60 km on my e-bike. A huge savings over my 8 cyclinder truck that is sometimes needed for business.
Totally agree - according to my GPS I average 20-25 km/h around town. That, alone, doesn't make me dangerous. Fact is, I pass courteously in the bike lanes, giving ample space to the cyclists there and slow down behind them if I can't pass. If an e-biker fails to do that, it's not his motor that puts him at fault. It is a lack of consideration and would likely be a problem no matter what mode of transportation they chose.
Hopefully we can all get past this little taste of fundamentalism quickly and move on towards getting what we all want, more safety and respect on our streets.
I am sure if e-bikers went on a crusade to ban bikes off paths or certain areas, Yvonne would be the first to spit venom. When you attack another persons choice, you must expect it. The perception of e-bikes in Ontario is extremely positive. Apparently we are ahead of Vancouver in sales in their first two years. Really it is a few posters on blogs that are the knockers. I know a young lady who rides hers to work every day and it is the same cyclist everyday that rides past her and spews ignorant comments. To condemn all cyclists would be wrong for this moron's ignorant road rage.
I guarantee you he is single.
I'm all for lower emmission vehicles. I'm all for not squabbling amongst ourselves.
What I find difficult is that we've fought for every KM of bike lane in this City. Sure in some parts of Ontario e-bikes might work in bike lanes. However here, there are bike lanes that are already crowded - take Harboard for example or the Waterfront trail on most days of the summer. To haphzardly add another group to this mix is poor planning. Maybe when there's bike lanes on more than 1.7% of Toronto's roads, I'll reconsider.
To attempt a ban on a sustainable alternative of transportation, across an entire province because of a congested area is unconsciable. 80% of the riders of scooter style e-bikes are not downtown Toronto, they are afraid they would be stolen or vandalized. Most people would not want to ride their bike downtown. If the paths are too crowded then perhaps quit recruiting more cyclists to give up their car..Your club is apparently full. More paths are needed...Agreed. Use the fact that the government has allowed them into the mix as part of your argument to get what it is needed...Much more positive without alienating another group against you. In my opionion Yvonne would do herself more justice by using e-bikes as a tool for her demands. Larger audience and more voices.
Demand the paths as a result of the decision....not the "exterminate them all attitude".
A few questions to ask one's self:
As someone who is about 50/50 split between transit and cycling, I personally hope to see a reduction in larger polluting vehicles on the road. I am thrilled to read (as is in Veloteq Rider's profile) of someone giving up a truck for a scooter. A bike would be awesome, sure, but not always practical for everyone. What would Toronto look like if we had 2% cyclists and 2% e-bikers? How about raising them to 5% each? As best I can tell that's a burden either lifted from streets or transit and a good thing either way. "One less car" is something to strive for even if that person is not pedaling or walking to where they're going.
Filling up our bike lanes is a good thing. Given some of the arguments I've heard against bike lanes ("We built them and nobody uses them!") this could also be a good thing.
I could well be wrong but it seems to me that this is a great opportunity to improve things on the streets by adding a good number of allies and orthodoxy is getting in the way.
I propose a peace treaty between the TCU and E-Bike Riders. On June 16th there is a meeting at the Ministry of Transportation, where many organizations will be involved on this historic day. Police, Bike Union, Manufacturers, Retailers, Environmental Group, etc....If we (TCU and E-Biker Group) went in as a team and came out the same way, we could work wonders together. If we walk out of there as adversaries, I will still fight for more paths, safer paths and cleaner streets but I certainly will remember who my friends are. At the moment, when I walk into Transport Canada, City Hall and other places in my own meetings, I can't help but be critical of the TCU stance and do what I have to do with the damage control created as a result (and with as many disobediant, lawbreaking demanding cyclists on the road and pictures of unused bikepaths at rush hour....it is very easy) I would rather say at my next meeting at City Hall Tomorrow.... "You Know What?...Everythings Cool, We Worked it Out!...WE WANT MORE PATHS!!!!!" Make sense to anybody out there?
Maybe all two wheeled road users should be more collaborative, but if that's your message, you'll need to do a better job of communicating it.
I don't know where you are getting your information from, but there are some rather dubious claims in your post.
There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.
Sound familiar?
I tried this approach already when I sent a private email to a rep at the TCU, and I was not even given a response...A few days later, Yvonne was on CBC requesting a ban on e-bikes on bike lanes and bike paths (the only place they could be possibly ridden). Think about it, if she was successful, Joe Average in Georgetown and Josephine AboveAverage in Smith Falls, would not be able to ride his or her e-bike to the corner store anymore because a few paths in downtown Toronto are too crowded..Insanity!!!!...So...I appeal to you again TCU..stop meddling with the future, and welcome us as we would welcome you. I love the work that Yvonne is doing and that she is out there fighting and I understand, we just waltzed in and use the paths you are fighting for...not fair I know,but thats life...we can help you now if you will allow us.
Which dubious claims are you referring to Seymore E-Bikes? LOL
If it is my 80% story, ask yourself this....with litterly thousands and thousands of scooter e-bikes sold in Ontario in the last three years, how many do you really see in a day downtown?
I am always trying to be respectful, however when someone is trying to have you "banished to the forest" a good defense sometimes has to be a strong offense. Nobody wants us to be friends more than me...
The trouble with the maples
And they’re quite convinced they’re right
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light
But the oaks can’t help their feelings
If they like the way they’re made
And they wonder why the maples
Can’t be happy in their shade
OK, if I must, here’s my top 3, but you asked for them:
1.Nobody is “attempt(ing) a ban on a sustainable alternative of transportation, across an entire province”
I don’t know how you confused this with the debate on e-bikes being classified as bicycles.
2. “80% of the riders of scooter style e-bikes are not downtown Toronto, they are afraid they would be stolen or vandalized. Most people would not want to ride their bike downtown.”
80% of what? GTA? Toronto? Nobody is tracking the number of e-bike sales, are you?
Who is afraid of them being vandalized?
How do you know that “most” people don’t want to ride their bike downtown?
3. “If the paths are too crowded then perhaps quit recruiting more cyclists to give up their car..Your club is apparently full”
The TCU is not full, not even close.
What reason could you have to suggest that we “quit” the effort to get more people cycling?
**But riding e-bikes on the sidewalks isn't the only problem.
Yvonne Bambrick of the Toronto Cyclists Union wants the city to go further and ban e-bikes from bike lanes and paths.
"I believe that any type of motorized vehicle whether it's an electric motor or a gas motor belongs with other motorized vehicles in the main part of our streets," she said.
At the root of the cyclists' concern is Ontario's new Road Safety Act.
Under the act an e-bike isn't classified as a motorcycle, but as a "power-assisted bicycle" because it has handlebars and pedals, and is capable of being propelled by muscular power, has a power output of less than 500W, and the power stops when brakes are applied.
Even though e-bikes have an ignition, lights and a speedometer, the province says they're still bicycles.
So according to the law, e-bikes are allowed everywhere that regular bikes can go bike lanes, bike trails, even bike stands and lockers.
**
Yes I have been tracking sales now for over 3 years...over 1000 on my list, it's a "hobby" of mine...True
I know your club isn't full silly...on the contrary..... but apparently the paths are overcrowded already which is one of the reasons e-bikes are not welcome according to certain spokespeople within certain cycling unions that I am not allowed to mention....My point Seymore is we need more paths and together we can get that faster than alone. I am speculating of course but with experience. Alot of paths are underused, so we have no problem there..The problem is congestion...we are not the cause...Cars are a big part of the congestion..If someone replaces their car for a bicycle or and e-bike, why is that not a good thing? (keeping in mind than not everyone will replace a car with a bicycle although that would be good)
Nice back pedaling though - even for an e-biker (LOL). I was more impressed with your pick-up on The Trees post.
TLDR
Did I catch something about mastering fluid dynamics before I can understand why a battery-powered moped is a bicycle?
Really Ken, you just go on and on trying to rationalize it.
I think your e-biker gang(LOL) can start a new moped/e-moped based movement... we'll get those suckers into bike lanes don't you worry one bit. Once we get those bilingual stickers on our sweet hogs those cyclists can stuff it - it will be like energy crisis in 1977 again with mopeds everywhere going anywhere!! beep beep get outta my way you stupid kids playing on the park path, beep beep vroom, beat it outta the bike lane old man. powerstop
don't make me high beam you, move right already, can't you see my signal!!
what a farce.
You also forgot limited speed of 32,electric and an enabling mechanism separate from the throttle that operates as a kill switch which is usually in the brake as well as a few other details....more to it than meets the eye...why are you using the electric name anyway? Why not hand that name to somebody who cares?
As mentioned electric. There is hundreds of pages on the subject of electric bicycles...Google the opposition and then at least you will be able to understand the differences between mopeds and bicycles and e-bikes...
below would be a good start...there is pictures for the guys and words for the girls..
http://www.icbc.com/registration-licensing/specialty-vehic...
Ken I know how "electric items" work - from what you've said I doubt you have more than a passing understanding of electricity.
Well, perhaps enough on how not to kill yourself when you plug your e-bike.
Most cyclists accept everybody - just as long as they're in the road not in a bike lane pretending they're a bicycle.
Finally all of you seem to be glossing over this point - nobody is banning e-bikes from ontario roads we just want them out of bike lanes and paths like Ottawa did last year
I can limit my moped to 32km/h - easy... do i get to drive it in the bike lane and around city parks now??
no...you still don't get it and I fear you never will.....
You mean like a couple of individuals wanted to do last year but failed....again so wrong....its like you read but do not understand....
So sorry I'm making things hard by calling a spade a spade... but then i'm working in reality here.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2008/08/07/ot-ebikes...
don't worry though, the world didn't end.
I say we set aside our differences and rise above the ill will.
No more stewing in our respective camps.
My comprimize is that we allow E-Bikes to go everywhere a Bicycle can go on one condition.
We agree to rename them F-Bikes. Is that OK with everyone? F-Bikes?
I hope I can reach a "compromise" like that when I get my moped. I'm itchin' to throttle that sucker past rush hour, i'm like soooo done with pedaling anything.
rolls eyes
The bike lanes are legal for ebikes to ride in Ottawa..
F=Faux?
Agreed. Greenwashing, I fucking hate you so much.
Somehow Shell is now saving the planet from the last commercial I saw from them.
Right.
E-Bikes are a great improvement on cars but here are a few REAL detractors.
(Not part of the list but I would rather be hit by a 20 pound crotch rocket than a 140 pound battery wagon.)
All this said, I would much rather see you all on a e-bike than in a car.
Although if you are a able bodied person get on a fucking bike, you are killing me in so many ways (LITERALLY).
Electric I have 25+ years experience as a board level repair technician for notebook computers and 5+ years experience in general electronics circuit level repair. You said E-Bikes could easily be made to go faster then 32kmh, which is not the case and I could easily prove it by showing why it is not easy inexpensive too. So either you obviously do not know about E-Bike technology or you figured you would say that as and hope nobody would question you about it. To make an E-bike go highway speeds here is what you would have to do. Add more batteries to go from 48V 20AH to 96V 60AH. Change the controller to a 96V 60A. Change the motor to a 3-5KW version. Replace the suspension, frame, brakes to motorcycle class components. In other words completely redesign the complete E-Bike to a electric Motorcycle. The average cost not including labor would be around $5-$10,000.00. Now do you want me to get into the circuitry changes needed or can we leave it at I do have a bit of experience in electronics to know what I am talking about. Sure you maybe able to change the batteries in your bicycle light, but your incorrect generalizations about E-Bike technology is irritating at best. I gave you a link so you can learn about LEVs (Light Electric Vehicles) use it and learn about the topic before you speak.
Ken finch
I am sorry you feel that way Electric, but the MTO says we can ride in the bike lanes and that will not change because a small number of die hard elitest cyclists do not want to share. In the real world I share our roads and bike lanes everyday with virtually no problems. So just because you and a few others are selfish with a union leader that does not want to grow up and work with the MTO and E-Bikers it most likely will not change. TCU is the Toronto Cycle Union. So obviously that union is only interested in what happens in Toronto only. So that Union should not be trying to change laws for the whole province of Ontario unless it is ready for the expense of traveling all over Ontario to get the opinions and see what the rest of the cyclists in Ontario need. But since your union only consists of Toronto and GTA area only members and only has interest in the GTA not all of Ontario. Then the TCU should not be able to decide for the rest of Ontario without doing full research and spend their money to get the rest of Ontario cyclists opinions and see what the rest of Ontario cyclist needs are. In other words stop pretending that a small number of downtown Toronto cyclists represent all of Ontario's cyclists opinions and try and ruin it for us all based on that. Stick to your area only, unless you are willing to fund the cycling structure for all of Ontario via the TCU's budget.
Ken Finch
You are degrading this forum even further by swearing now. Now your true age and maturity shows up. I was wondering when your true colors would show up. That aside E-Bike riders are not trying to take over the cycling structure at all. We are just wanting to share that structure equally as it was granted to us by the MTO ruling and by us being classed as a bicycle by the Ministry, that is all. But other then Yvonne and and a few elitest cyclists from downtown Toronto, the majority of the bicycling public across Ontario shares the cycling infrastructure equally and it is nice to see that not all of Ontario's cyclists are not so self centered. So get with the program and you will see this selfish agenda is not what most Ontario cyclists want. Open your eyes and take your elitest cycling (horse) blinders off and look around. You will see what you are spewing is not based on real world views or statistics.
Ken Finch
OK, and lets change bicycle riders names in downtown Toronto only to Outlaw riders instead of bicycle riders. Because most outlaws are only interested in their own selfish interests only, no matter how it affects others. They are willing to stoop to any level to get there agenda across even if that means breaking laws. They generally when pushed become vulgar in their speech and actions when they cannot get their selfish agendas pushed through because that is not what the general public wants.
Ken Finch
Well from what I can tell Ottawa banned the E-bikes from the bike paths but NOT from the bike lanes. I am fine with not using the bike paths in our parks for E-Bikes and for anything but a standard bicycle with no cargo bags attached. But I am against E-bikes being banned from the bike lanes. Get your facts straight Electric, do some research on a subject before posting please.
Ken Finch
1 Most E-Bike riders charge their E-Bike overnight when the demand for electrical power is low, so our electrical grid is not getting any extra strain.
2 Because every automobile uses a lead acid battery there is a healthy lead acid battery recycling system that has been in operation for years, 98-99% of lead acid batteries are recycled every year by these lead acid battery recycling companies.
3 The coal fired electrical generators are as clean burning as possible. They are a lot cleaner burning then the diesel buses of the TTC and Go Train locomotives. And they are definitely a lot cleaner burning then the automobiles, motorcycles and gas scooters out their on our roadways. Nuclear is mostly emissions free except for the used fuel rods, that is a problem that is being worked on. Hydro dams are completely emissions free so is solar and wind energy.
Bicycles are not 100% non polluting either. You need grease for the axles and bearings and joints on the bicycle. You need oil for your bicycle chain, you also need to replace your tires and tubes, those used tubes and tires go to the landfills as well. Your body uses oxygen and expels CO2 and if you fart you expel greenhouse gases as well. The plastic water bottles you use then dispose of go to the landfills as well. The food you eat is the worst inefficient way of transferring energy as well. (I know us E-Bike riders need food as well, but less then a bicycle riders requires while riding).
Ken Finch
I don;t think anyone calls it a bicycle.Mine is an e-bike. They are categorized under"power assisted bicycles".
Underneath the cosmetic covering is an ugly bicycle frame and pedals and a chain. You guys are too much. We needed more choices than a car, here it is.
You are correct, I did not mean e-bikes are bicycles. But they are classed as a form of a bicycle for the rules but are formally called Power Assisted Bicycles as you have stated. Thanks for the correction.
Ken Finch
Hey Chill Ken,
My first choice was FN Bike - then you were suppossed to say, "it's an E-Bike not a FN Bike", then I was going to cordially agree after you had been trapped in my web of words.
Thanks for scewing that up (sheesh).
Ok, sorry Seymore, I thought it was just more Anti E-Bike flack again. It is getting hard to tell the jokes from the serious sarcasm (I admit sometimes I am guilty at sarcasm as well, but I am only human and speak my feeling from my heart about something I care about).
Ken Finch
Go ahead Electric, and try and weave in and out of lanes and jump curbs and run through stop signs like you probably do on a bicycle. Lets see how long you last before either getting creamed, getting a ticket or losing your license and or scooter. If your scooter is confiscated I will buy it from the Police Auction to part it out for a profit and tell you about it.
Ken Finch
Actually it was both.
PPP....100% agreed, Bicycles first before cars. What Ken I am sure was trying to say (LOL) is e-bikes second. The exciting future is in the battery market, but the demand must be in place before the supply. Recycling of lead acid is performed successfully now. I certainly would not argue that an e-bike is a bicycle becuase that would be as incorrect as calling a moped and e-bike. Completely different category. To charge an e-bike is extremely low on consumption...it is like 15 cents on the average...
When the term "power assisted bicycles" was first introduced in 2000, e-bikes had to be "primarily pedalled. A couple of years later "power on demand" was included to accomodate those who could not or did not want to pedal. They are still under the guise of "power assisted bicycles". To spend thousands and thousands of dollars of tax payer dollars to differentiate the classifications is not money well spent in our economy. If we could learn to live with the fact that a bicycle is a bicycle and an e-bike is a "power assisted bicycle" (which is how they are categorized), and they come in different shapes and sizes. I refer again to how BC handled it 6 years ago and has proven the test of time to satisfy the masses...(never the whole)
http://www.icbc.com/registration-licensing/specialty-vehic...
I wished we could all play together nicer....let the fighting take place overseas.....
There are a few posters (not you PPP) that do like to push buttons that is irritating because of their childish remarks, on both sides of this topic. I sometimes have to walk away from the computer, do a lap around the block on my e-bike, pour myslelf a cocktail and watch "so you think you can dance" to unwind. LOL
LOL....I would have went along with that one, even though I knew where it was going...LOL
Reminds me of the old "there is no "F" in Chocolate joke....
Yes what I meant to say is that 2nd to bicycles E-Bikes are next in line to be green machines. But I just wanted to remind people there is nothing 100% green out there that can be riden (except maybe animals), my bad.
Ken Finch
Yes Electric fluid dynamics is used for study how air will cool the controller and the motor. They use fluids because it is to control and see. They even use fluid dynamics to design automobiles and bicycles, bet you did not know that. That is because I do research on stuff I want to learn about, I do not just sit there and guess how it works. If you would read and study more you would understand more. But the way you talk your age must be between 16-25 years old. Still too young to have learned respect for others and have not mentally matured yet. Still in the partying, I am invincible and I know everything stage of your life. Do not worry if you make it to your 30s you will learn all these things and your mentality will mature. I still remember being like you 15-20 years ago. I now realize how much of a fool I was back then.
Ken Finch
Woops Sorry! Wrong Thread!!!!! MY BAD
Veloteq Rider
June 16th is fast approaching...
Scenario One: We walk in and the TCU objects only to the fact that there are insufficent paths, and that we insist on more paths to accomodate this wonderful alternative to automobiles and together we can make a difference. From there we exchange numbers and work together towards a common goal.
Scenario Two: We walk in and the the TCU objects to ebikes on the bike lanes and paths and makes claims on how dangerous they are to cyclists and pedestrians ( to which we counter claim based on statistics on the dangers of cycling and the total amount of accidents and deaths over the last 5 years) The TCU continues their rant that e-bikes should be made to go faster, and call them motorcyles and be on the road in mainstream traffic. From there we snear at each other and leave.
Two Paths...If I was a Union Leader I Know Which One I Would Take....But that's me.
I appeal to all union members and non union members to contact the TCU and suggest possibly a truce to work together in spite of our choice.
Together we have a larger voice and some of us have contacts as well to help the cause.
One less car on the road.....
from http://www.thefountainpen.com/cgi-bin/showstory?id=7530
Anthony
This was not an e-bike,this was a cylclist who modified his bike with a gas powered engine.
E is for electric and G is for Gas. Nothing to do with E-bikers. Interesting so many people including this particular cop haven't twigged yet. The pilot program is strictly for electric....NO GAS and NO MOTORS over 500 watts. Unfortunately there are many people who lose their licence that gravitate to both bicycle and e-bike as a result.
PILOT PROJECT — POWER-ASSISTED BICYCLES
Definition
1. (1) In this Regulation,
“power-assisted bicycle” means a bicycle that,
(a) is a power-assisted bicycle as defined in subsection 2 (1) of the Motor Vehicle
Safety Regulations made under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada), and
(b) bears a label affixed by the manufacturer in compliance with the definition
referred to in clause (a).
(2) A power-assisted bicycle is deemed to not be a motor vehicle under the Act.
The definition by Ontario's HTA, vs. the definition found in the Criminal Code, of what constitutes a motor vehicle seem to not be in agreement...
From:
http://www.thefountainpen.com/cgi-bin/showstory?id=7533
Saw this lat night while flipping channels - this is what happens when you cross a bicyle with an inverted rail system.
http://www.shweeb.com/
Maybe we could just build Toronto a sprawling transit system that looks something like the working end of a dry cleaner.
Either way...It was not an E-Bike...It was a bicycle with a gas powered motor....As mentioned, while a few of the undesirables slip through the cracks and purchase bicycles or e-bikes after they lose their licence has no bearing on their validity or place in society. Unless of course you think the e-bike market is dependant on those people, in which case you are really far off base. Couldn't care a less about that market...You can have them. Another drunk on a bicycle is the last thing we need as well. E-Bikers for the most part are looking for a clean and desirable alternative to automobiles for short commutes.
The Green Living Show was host to several e-bike companies promoting their use. Anthony, again will say until I am blue in the face, I fail to see why the TCU does not want to recognise them as another alternative. Wsihing them off the bike lanes is the same as asking for their demise. E-bikers will not switch to a motorcyle instead. They will switch back to their car. I am all for cycling as an alternative, and all for e-bikes as another. Wished you guys were.
You can tilt at that windmill all you like, but I wasn't talking about the Union. I suggest you take up your issues with them directly. The Toronto Cyclists Union's AGM is on the 18th. Memberships will be available at the door. There's no better time, or venue, to air your griefs than at the AGM.
The only point that I was trying to make is that e-bikes are still motor vehicles in the Criminal Code. So the perception of e-bikes as motor-vehicles is still valid, at least in some of the laws of the land.
from: http://news.therecord.com/News/Local/article/551692
Anthony...a power assisted vehicle is deemed not to be a motor vehicle under the act...period.
Unless of course you lost your licence due to a Federal Offence...Who Cares about them....let them walk...they shouldn't be alllowed bicycles either, except anyone can ride a bicycle at top speed, regardless of their past drunken charges. The police are not the law makers, they are there to uphold the existing laws....certainly not to interperate the laws...but thank-you for sending me that article...I have since then forwarded information to the proper authorites to "educate" their police department. As well, there is a big difference of a motor assisted bicycle and a power assisted bicycle that seems to be explained over and over again. E-Bikes are not motor assisted bicycles...they are power assisted bicycles due to their limited speed and motor, and once again for old times sake...a power assisted bicycle is deemed not to be a motor vehicle under the act..
PILOT PROJECT — POWER-ASSISTED BICYCLES
Definition
1. (1) In this Regulation,
“power-assisted bicycle” means a bicycle that,
(a) is a power-assisted bicycle as defined in subsection 2 (1) of the Motor Vehicle
Safety Regulations made under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada), and
(b) bears a label affixed by the manufacturer in compliance with the definition
referred to in clause (a).
(2) A power-assisted bicycle is deemed to not be a motor vehicle under the Act.
I think you're still missing Anthony's point. He's saying that the definition of "motor vehicle" is different in the HTA vs. the Criminal Code.
Any lawyers or other experts around here know which definition / laws trump the other?
Sounds like the criminal code wins in the case of the articles linked above (yes, I realize the person charged was driving a GAS-powered bike, but if it was an e-bike it sounds like the criminal code would have still applied).
Vic
I understand his point...and glad someone understands mine that there is a legal difference between the two. The fact that in the article they are using the term e-bike and motor assisted bicycle shows me how uninformed some police officers are. I have been working with a training sargeant for three years now and I have sent off that article to him.
As mentioned, I have no compassion for people who have lost their licence to drinking and driving....I hope that it is true that someone charged and found guilty cannot operate an e-bike.
It is too bad they are still allowed to ride a bicycle...
Great Video! I am all for monorails across the city as opposed to cars. Years ago the CNE had one and even back then as a child I dreamed of one that went from one end of the city to the next. Can't go too far or bathrooms would be needed...lol
The act in question here is the HTA. Yes, under the HTA an "e-bike" is legally equivalent to a "bicycle." Fine; the Province has stated in law that the two are equivalent.
However, any vehicle with a motor is a motor-vehicle in the Criminal Code, including an e-bike. This is a different act written by different body of government (that is, the Federal Government).
Several people were charged, and at least one of them was on an e-bike. The charges laid against the person riding the e-bike were under the criminal code, and not under the HTA. The warning from the Guelph Police was for all operators of motor-vehicles, and in particular the operators of e-bikes. Any operator of any motor-vehicle can be charged under the Criminal Code -- even though e-bikers might not be able to charged under the HTA.
The best options for those who would drink outside the home would be the same today as always: Hail a cab; Use public transit; Get a ride from a sober friend; Or simply walk/stagger home.
Good Advice...
Driving under the influence of alcohol (driving while intoxicated, drunk driving, drinking and driving, drink-driving) or other drugs, is the act of operating a vehicle (including bicycle, e-bike, boat, airplane or horse) after consuming alcohol or using drugs. It is a criminal offense in most countries.
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/emerging/e-...
Drinking and driving a motor vehicle is a Criminal Code offence and charges are laid under the Criminal Code of Canada. Under the Criminal Code, the definition of a "motor vehicle" would include an e-bike and anyone operating an e-bike intoxicated could be charged for impaired driving. If convicted, the offender would be subject to the Criminal Code penalties, including a fine or jail time, and a driving prohibition. However, under this pilot regulation, an e-bike would not be a motor vehicle under the Highway Traffic Act, so penalties for impaired driving under the Act would not apply
So, whether it is an e-bike or a bicycle, while you may not directly kill someone, a result of your erratic cycling or coasting you could be the cause of the accident leading up to a serious injury or death.
Also any cyclist can be charged for riding a bicycle while under the influence as well. A bicycle is classified as a vehicle on our roads, it may not be classified as a motor vehicle but as a vehicle on our roads. That means a bicycle rider has to obey all the regular traffic laws plus the laws specific to bicycles. That means you cannot ride a bicycle while drunk.
Ken Finch
Sorry Veloteq Rider you beat me to it on this comment.
Ken Finch
Didn't beat you by much...Point taken to us all...as soon as we get up in the morning our lives are at risk...You could be just standing at a bus shelter, and be mowed over by a motorist. It is important to be alert to your surroundings with all your senses. We are both at the mercy of the almighty automobile.
s.253 of the criminal code, offences related to driving while impaired, speaks specifically to motor vehicles which does not include the bicycle.
Darren who cares what the law says, just do not drink and drive/ride. Why are you defending drinking and riding your bicycle, do you do it on a regular basis, if you do you should stop, when you are riding drunk you are a danger to yourself and everybody else around you. I would not be proud of it if you are. I would not defend the practice I actually am appalled by anybody would drinks and gets on anything with wheels.
Ken Finch
that's right, bicycles are above the law. they can ride on sidewalks even though it's illegal. they can shoot through stop signs. dart in and out of traffic and in their spare time they lobby against electric bicycles on their paths. excellent work. I see why bicycling is so popular.
Ken, you presented your opinion, that drinking and driving/riding is despicable, as a fact that could get you criminally charged. I agree that drinking and driving/riding is despicable but you have yet to provide any fact that proves drinking and riding a bicycle will currently result in a criminal charge.
Your attempts to smear what I said by jumping to conclusions and reading into things is troublesome. Your presentation of your opinions as fact is even worse. I have talked to many cyclists who have acted on what others have presented as fact which actually turned out to be opinion. Some got into a lot of hot water over it.
Next time before jumping to conclusions, sit down and have a nice drink (alcoholic or not) and do some research. Alternatively, you can be a bit more precise, ie "It is my opinion that people who ride bicycles drunk should face criminal charges".