It seems like a traditional cyclist's favourite thing to criticize these days are the new e-bikes that are popping up on Toronto's roads, and yes, the bike paths. Not quite bicycles, as they are typically not being pedalled, and not quite scooters, travelling at restricted speeds. More like scooters than bicycles, but importantly for road safety, they sport bright taillights and headlights, turn signals, and dual mirrors.
Here's a letter to make you think about them from the point of view of someone riding them. Maryann King wrote this letter in response to the negative piece about e-bikes recently published in NOW magazine.
Dear Paul Terefenko… you sound suspiciously like one of the "lance-armstrong-wannabes" that I have to deal with daily. You know, the ones on the Martin Goodman trail that are going 35kmh in a 20kmh zone, the ones who don't stop at the stop signs which say "Cyclists must stop", the ones who plow through every red light on Queens Quay, the ones who don't slow for joggers and move into the left lane going around blind corners. I face your type every weekday morning as I commute to work on my e-bike, following the rules of the road. I am a 57 year old woman living at Lake Shore and Long Branch. I work at Queen and Yonge. I used to ride a regular bike, but I am having knee problems. So I purchased an electric bike in April and I have been riding my e-bike to work. This costs me $.04 per night to charge and I am emitting no green house gases into the atmosphere.
It is very unsafe riding on the Queensway. The only other way for me to get past the Humber is to take the Lakefront trail. I checked with a policeman who told me it is legal for me to ride my bike on the path, as long as I obey the limits and signs. I have done so. I am respectful of all joggers, runners, dog walkers, skateboarders and certainly other bikes while I am on there. To those on the path who have now accepted me as one of them, I give my thanks. My bike is no wider than a pedal bike. It is not noisy. (I sometimes have to warn the birds that I am coming.) Going home at night I stay on the Queensway until Windemere and only take the path to get over the bridge; on the other side, I get off as soon as the street becomes available and take the Lake Shore or Birmingham home.
My biggest problem on the road today, is that so many bicyclists do not follow the rules of the road, so drivers are understandably distrusting of anyone on a two-wheeled vehicle. Yes, there will be more of us on the road. As soon as there is a more viable way for us to commute, we'll use it. Until then, I accept that there will always be elitists like you and Yvonne Bambrick of the Toronto Cyclists Union (and I am using the term 'union' loosely, since she won't accept me as one of her ranks), and I will smile and nod my helmet as I pass. I paid over $14000 in income tax last year, and I have the right to use the the facilities like all the peddlers, as long as I obey the laws.
Comments
Svend
Maryann on her e-bike sounds
Thu, 07/24/2008 - 10:41Maryann on her e-bike sounds like an ideal rider for the cycling lane and paths, this pedaler has no problem accepting her among our ranks.
I hope, like Yvonne Bambrick of the Toronto Cyclist Union does, that more of these bikes will mean a better infrastructure for us all.
I hope the union will reconsider her membership in the future, I agree that many comments against them are of an elitist nature.
Cpt_Sunshine
E-bike emissions
Thu, 07/24/2008 - 10:43There are a couple of errors in this letter.
Firstly, I'm not a Lance Armstrong wannabe, I'm a Tom Boonen wannabe.
Secondly, the notion that by riding an e-bike "I am emitting no green house gases into the atmosphere". This is simply not true. It is based on the premise that our electricity generation is carbon neutral, which it is anything but. The current stats from the Ontario ministry of Energy and Infrastructure list that our electricity is generated by: 52% Nuclear, 21% Hydro, 18% Coal, 8%Gas, and 1% Wind (http://www.energy.gov.on.ca/index.cfm?fuseaction=english.electricity)
So only 22% of that electricity you're putting into your bike is emissions free (CO2 emissions from Nuclear are from the mining and refinement of Uranium/Plutonium).
In fact, once you start to factor in the overall lower efficiency of our power grid (transmistion line losses, transformer losses etc.) it is entirely possible, that a 2-stroke motor outputting 500W produces less emissions then your e-bike .
Anonymous (not verified)
hydro
Thu, 07/24/2008 - 15:36re: "only 22% of that electricity you're putting into your bike is emissions free"
hydroelectricity is not greenhouse gas emissions free. the loss of forest and wetlands due to flooding causes a net change in the carbon balance on that ecosystem from a carbon sink (typically for a forest) or carbon neutral (typically for a wetland) to a carbon source to the atmosphere. further, decomposition of soil and vegetation under low and zero-oxygen environments, such as those found in the flooded soils and wetlands of a boreal reservoir, produce both carbon dioxide and methane.
for example:
http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/faculty/vincent_stlouis/uploads/pdfs/BioS...
http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journals/esthag-a/38/i18/toc/toc_i18.html
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/esthag/1997/31/i05/abs/es960493...
Maryann (not verified)
e-bike emissions
Fri, 07/25/2008 - 21:18I probably shouldn't even bother responding, Cpt Sunshine, but I don't have a clue who Tom Boonen is, and I do know who Lance Armstrong is, so thank you for straightening me out, and I apologize if I offended you.
I didn't mean to imply that my bike does not require energy to use. It does not emit green house gases. Even a peddler requires energy to move the bike. I'm not a physicist, and I don't intend to start playing a numbers game with you. But can you honestly believe that $14 per year of electricity is more detrimental to the environment than the cost of producing fuel to run a gas powered vehicle, regardless of the type?
I rode a pedal bike for more years than you have probably been alive, so I can make some reasonable non-scientific comparisons. I know I had to eat a lot more for long bike rides, and I know I didn't eat just organic, veggies grown in Ontario, for every trip, so I refuse to argue the energy issue.
As a musician, singer, and composer, I also selected the e-bike because it is quieter. Noise pollution is also detrimental to the environment. I appreciate my 6:30 ride each morning because it is esthetic and peaceful, and I feel connected to those I meet on my journey. I smile and greet almost all I meet, and many of those who pass my way do the same. It is always more stressful going home, but I deal with it, as do all commuters.
I thank those who accept me. And for those who don't, I am sorry that you disagree with my choices, and I will try not to be a bother. If the law changes and the regulations for my type of bike are changed, I will comply, but I will be disappointed, because my rides in the morning have become a source of peace for me.
Andrew Thomson
I don't see a need to put
Sun, 08/03/2008 - 18:26I don't see a need to put someone down for getting on an e bike and biking to work and even if it does put out a few emissions while its charging it still sure beats getting in a car and driving to work
Rick Mason (not verified)
Not all are like Maryann
Thu, 07/24/2008 - 12:00Maryann, if only everyone on any form of bike, e-bike or otherwise, would follow the rules of the road. I had the displeasure of riding into work along Queen West the other day and I was appalled at the number of cyclists who seemed oblivious to everything around them including the stop lights. I normally ride in from the east end and most bike commuters I encounter are in helmets and stop at every sign and light.
The concern I have with e-bikes is with the larger variety. The ones that look like a full size scooter and look like they weigh at least 100 pounds. I don't know how much these things actually weigh but they simply feel dangerous to be around. Maybe that's a misconception I need to get over. What's the stopping distance on these things? Is it comparable to the extremely short distance a pedal bike can stop in? The disc brakes on my bike can stop me from 30km/h in only a few short feet.
The problem is exacerbated by the e-bikers who ride as recklessly as some other cyclists. I've seen people on these scooters whipping in and out of traffic, into the bike lane and back into traffic without looking, signaling or otherwise. Is this any more dangerous than the cyclists I regularly encounter who come flying out of side streets onto main arteries without even slowing down or looking and nearly plow into me in the process? Probably not, but the e-bikes feel more dangerous because of their size.
At the end of the day I think a lot of this is about perceptions and the real problem is a general lack of regard for the rules of the road by a large group of cyclists and e-bikers.
Luke Siragusa
Get used to it.
Thu, 07/24/2008 - 12:42Cyclists get used to it: as the economics and ecology of car use becomes increasingly precarious expect that you will have to contend with "alternative" modes of transport be they rollerblades, skateboards, e-bikes, Segways and who knows what else?
It's reasonable that those marginalized by automobility will take to MUPs and bike lanes; do they have to justify to cyclists the reasons, we know them all to well already. Let's not be so doctrinaire as to exclude all but conventional cyclists; let's not subscribe to the exclusionary orthodoxy of motorists which claims roads are the select preserve of cars. The idea is to work toward an inclusive public infrastructure, isn't that what cyclists have been aiming for?
The necessity of change is steamrolling over millions and millions of motorists' customs; expecting cyclists to exist in isolation of its repercussions -- favourable or not -- is unrealistic.
Maryann is justified in taking to bikeways although I find her reasoning specious. She claims her "biggest problem on the road today, is that so many bicyclists do not follow the rules of the road, so drivers are understandably distrusting of anyone on a two-wheeled vehicle."
I don't think so. Her biggest problem? "It is very unsafe riding on the Queensway. The only other way for me to get past the Humber is to take the Lakefront trail." Maryann unwittlingly reveals the real danger posed by lawless cyclists by opting to mingle with them rather than all those, oh, law abiding motorists on the main drag.
She wrote it but she hasn't grasped it: Maryann's real trouble is her " over $14000 in income tax" underwriting infrastructure that prevents her accessing it because it's too dangerous. Maryann, get used to it and welcome to the world that cyclists must navigate everyday.
Ed (not verified)
I think it's a faux "speed limit"
Thu, 07/24/2008 - 12:47"You know, the ones on the Martin Goodman trail that are going 35kmh in a 20kmh zone, the ones who don't stop at the stop signs which say "Cyclists must stop", the ones who plow through every red light on Queens Quay, the ones who don't slow for joggers and move into the left lane going around blind corners."
Yes, there are signs posted on the Martin Goodman trail that say "Speed limit 20 km/h". I have done a search of City of Toronto bylaws and regulations, and nowhere does this limit appear. So, yes, I utterly ignore it, as on the flat with no wind I cruise around 31 km/h.
The fact that the city maintains six lanes of automotive traffic signed for 60 km/h right beside the trail, and another six lanes signed for 90 km/h right beside that, while keeping bicycles to a jogging pace, well, that's how the City still thinks. (Never mind the bollards at the Boulevard Club, and the non-existent warning signs for vehicles promised on Gord Perks' website almost a year ago.)
Riding in from Long Branch to Spadina and Queen, it's about 19 km by the waterfront route and 20 km/h would mean well over an hour's travel time when you count in stops. (I average about 25 km/h all-in: road, trail, stop signs, red lights.)
I do stop at the stop signs. And I do wonder at some cyclists and rollerbladers and joggers who like to cut way over to the left when going north by the east entrance to Ontario Place, so that they're in the oncoming lane just by a blind corner.
And the "training" cyclists who don't stop at stop signs--you know, you're missing out on some good interval work by zipping through. (Plus your acceleration is usually pretty pathetic and could be vastly improved by, you know, actually stopping.)
Anonymous (not verified)
The unpredictability of
Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:23The unpredictability of other trail users would give one all the more reason to obey the suggested speed limit, I would imagine.
Ed (not verified)
"The unpredictability of
Thu, 07/24/2008 - 19:49"The unpredictability of other trail users would give one all the more reason to obey the suggested speed limit, I would imagine."
Point taken--I've seen two pretty good crashes out by the Humber.
But I managed to avoid crashing while making hundreds of trips along the Martin Goodman trail, at whatever speed I could manage (20 km/h into a really awful headwind, maybe). I'm getting too old to heal quickly, while my speed is staying up. Therefore I ride with at least attention--no iPod and tinted shades for me.
It's the peloton-wannabe's who try to ride in a pace line that are really pushing it. And one of the crashes was a pace line encountering a roller-blader. Bikes all over the lawn.
I think this takes us back to the "new cyclists" thread, does it not?
(For what it's worth, I've cycled for 30-odd years, and the last really stupid crash I had was in 1990 or so. That's aside from trying dumb things riding off-road, of course.)
darren
e-bike is good
Thu, 07/24/2008 - 16:43I don't have the knowledge to do a full audit, but there a few things that assure me that an e-bike is much better vehicle than a car when it comes to emissions. It's less than 1/10th of the weight (or even 1/20th!) of a small car, so the amount of energy needed accelerate is less. It doesn't go that fast so the energy in acceleration is less again. It uses an electric motor which has better energy conversion efficiency than a gas engine.
The result, as Maryann says, is that she spends $0.04 per night recharging. This is probably the same amount of energy as people use watching TV each night. Whether the power comes from hydro, nuclear, gas-fired, or even a home gasoline generator, it's impact on our environment is negligible compared to using a car.
-dj
Tone (not verified)
All food isn't carbon neutral either!
Thu, 07/24/2008 - 17:06Regarding the carbon footprint of e-bikes; the fuel I used to ride my regular bike here today was food ... and depending on what I ate, I might have a small or large carbon footprint.
My understanding is the ideal would be if I were a vegatarian eating organically-grown foods. My diet isn't as "pure" as that ... and I wouldn't be surprised if the carbon impact of the occasional steak I enjoy is larger that that generated by the electricity needed to power an ebike :-)
My point is that, as Luke says, people are going to respond to high fuel prices, congestion and environmental concerns by getting around in new ways ... and that's a good thing. We need to find ways to co-exist happily and create a road network that can safely accomodate all these different kinds of vehicles.
DigitalCyclist
Welcome e-biker!
Thu, 07/24/2008 - 17:41Maryann, I'd be glad to have you on any road, trail, bike path or multi-use path I'm walking or cycling on. I'd rather see legions like you than the many "ped-cyclists" I encounter each day.
Ped-cyclists are those in-between creatures who take unthinkingly ride on the sidewalk, launch out into crosswalks and ride across them, ride against the traffic flow in bike lanes, and exhibit ongoing disregard for other traffic (whether ped, cyclist or motorist), traffic laws, and common sense.
I'm a committed road & utility cyclist and I cycle as I drive -- with full recognition of the HTA and traffic by-laws, and as much in harmony with the movement around me as possible. The more e-bikes we see on the roads, the more all modes of transport slow down and become more accommodating.
As for the ped-cyclists, well, Darwin will take care of them one by one.
...AlanM
rickconroy (not verified)
welcome, e-bikes
Thu, 07/24/2008 - 17:56Maryann wrote:
The Toronto Cyclists Union would be very happy to have Maryann join.
We have no restrictions at all on membership. Our goal of improving
the lot of cyclists in Toronto will make the city a better place to live,
and all Torontonians, including Maryann, will benefit.
Anonymous (not verified)
Ebikes OK, gas scooters in bike lanes - not OK
Thu, 07/24/2008 - 21:08OK, I'm convinced....my knees are going to give out some day too and I'm happy to share my bike lane with Maryann.
But lets all agree that GAS scooters definitely don't belong in the bike lane. I've gone to war with a few of these folks and thankfully with a license plate they're a little easier to register a complaint about.
Sometimes these two types are hard to tell apart a first glance so my brows may wrinkle initially but as long as there's no exhaust you can keep on e'bikin.
The EnigManiac
As a 30-year, year-round
Thu, 07/24/2008 - 23:28As a 30-year, year-round cycling-commuter, I welcome e-bikes on the road. They are far better than cars and trucks, after all. However, it is clear, from my experiences, that those who are using e-bikes want to straddle the line between motorist and cyclist; all the cost-saving a cyclist experiences without the work (and sweat). It's as if they want the superior-minded arrogance some of us have because we ride bikes rather than drive cars, but they'd really rather not have the effort. Sorry. Nothing is free in life. Gotta earn that arrogance (LOL).
And, of course, some ebikers---well, many actually---like to behave like a snob as they point to their helmet---something they must wear, by law, but cyclists are exempt from as some sort of crown of superiority. Um, message to newbies: helmets for adult cyclists are not mandatory, will not protect you from being hit and if one has skill, common-sense, control and the proper safety equipment, one doesn't need a helmet.
I can't help but conclude that the e-bikers I see, for the most part---though not all, are lazy, in spite of the fact that many of the e-bikers I've seen appear to really need the physical exercise a bicycle would provide them with.
While their vehicle is environmentally practical and a terrific choice for those who may be permanently physically challenged, they are not bicycles, thus they do not belong in bike lanes. The City of Toronto website clearly defines bike lanes as being solely for the use of bicycles, not joggers, roller-blades, skateboards, electric medical scooters and wheelchairs or power-assisted bicycles; bicycles and only bicycles; not courier trucks, taxi's and motorists who want a convenient drop-off/pick-up lane or a safe place to make cell-phone calls: bicycles. It is that simple. That is why they are called bike lanes and feature the symbol of a bicycle. Otherwise they'd be called Multi-use paths (MUP's). While e-bikes can be used as a regular bicycle, the vast majority of e-bikers that I see in bike lanes are using their motor all the time. Heck, they even use the motor when going downhill. Sorry, but that makes the e-bike a scooter wannabe and if e-bikers want to run at 32km/h, a speed many cyclists don't or can't attain, then they need to join the rest of the motoring traffic. Until the city widens bike lanes and allows other vehicles to use a widened MUP, e-bikes have no business in bike lanes. It doesn't matter how much we spend in property tax, ebikes are welcome to use regular traffic lanes, not reserved bike lanes. Oh, and on an unrelated side-issue, scooters like Vespas are also NOT permitted to use bicycle ring-posts to lock-up to. Those, too, are for the exclusive use of cyclists.
Cpt_Sunshine
Are E-bikes any different than 2-stroke Scooters?
Fri, 07/25/2008 - 00:31Sorry, I guess the point I was trying to make in my earlier post was a bit muddled.
It seems to me that Maryann was trying to justify the special privilege given to e-bikes because they are better for the environment. I was just trying to illustrate that isn't necessarily the case, that 2-Stroke scooters have approximately the same footprint as E-bikes. True E-bikes are better than cars, but as the anonymous poster above mentioned we do seem to draw a line between Scooters with electric motors and Scooters with gas motors.
E-bikes ok - 2 Stroke, not ok.
I'm just questioning why we make that distinction. If both Scooters weigh the same amount, both travel at the same speed (I realize gas scooters probably travel faster, but a speed limit is really arbitrary), and both have a similar effect on the environment.
So why do we allow E-bikes in bike lanes and not 2-stroke scooters?
Derek Koops (not verified)
E-Bikes are Hugely Different from Powered Gasoline Scooters
Fri, 07/25/2008 - 11:02There are two reasons that the environmental footprint of E-bikes is very different from gasoline powered scooters, power and emission controls.
Power: E-bikes can produce 500W or upto 750W of power with an illegal upgrade. 750W is approximately 1 horsepower. A gasoline powered scooter with the tiniest of engines (say 49cc) would be able to produce at least several times many times that amount of horsepower (some more than 20 horsepower). There is no way that a motor with that much less output on an E-bike is consuming the same amount of energy as a gasoline powered motor.
Emission Controls: 2 stroke and even 4 stroke small motors don't have the same kind of emission controls on them that come on larger motors like car engines such as catalytic converters and their exhaust is dirty with partially combusted fuel which is why their exhaust smells so much worse than car exhaust. Even if all of the electricity used to produce energy from an E-Bike was produced in a coal fired power plant, the emissions would not be as dirty as those coming from a gas powered scooter and at the very least they would not be emitted in the areas with highest population density. This problem is compounded by the variability with which scooter users treat maintenance....a poorly maintained scooter will create more emissions wheras the coal fired power plants are professionally maintained and produce a more consistent level of emissions.
tanya
2-stroke scooters
Fri, 07/25/2008 - 01:21Assuming they could be made to have a restricted speed - I don't think we can rely on human judgment to not go faster than X kmh while in the bike lane on a gas scooter... so lets say they are travelling at 30 kmh and I'm riding my pedal bike behind one at 30 kph
There is the issue of emissions that the electric scooter doesn't have. I don't want to be directly sucking back exhaust of the gas scooter... And particularly when stopped at a light. That's one nice advantage of bike lanes is you don't have to stopped at a light inhaling exhaust...
Svend
Forget about allowing them
Fri, 07/25/2008 - 13:26Forget about allowing them on the road, two stroke engines should be banned.
Whether they're on scooters, leaf blowers or lawn mowers, they're extremely dirty.
chephy (not verified)
I can understand Maryann and
Fri, 07/25/2008 - 22:31I can understand Maryann and other e-bike users. And I can understand those who oppose e-bikes in bike lanes and on bike paths. Cyclists feel marginalized in the car-centric world, and are trying to protect whatever little cycling-specific infrastructure that's been handed to them. E-bikers feel even more marginalized: disliked and pushed around by both motor vehicle drivers and cyclists.
The real problem is not e-bikes or regular bikes though. It's CARS. Actually, more so than cars it's car drivers who stole public roads from everyone else, and who will resort to insults, violence and vehicular homicide when non-motor vehicle drivers are trying to legally use the infrastructures their tax dollars helped pay for. In such a situation, these marginalized users will naturally be fighting for whatever scraps of the road space they can get at all.
The solution has nothing to do with trying to regulate e-bikes. Get most of the fucking cars off the road, and teach the drivers of the ones civility and respect for other road users - and the problems will disappear. There is plenty of road to go around when it's not hogged by heavy dangerous vehicles piloted by ignorant aggressive drivers.
anthony
Maryann, join the bike union
Sat, 07/26/2008 - 01:29Maryann, the bike union is a member funded advocacy group that is supposed to speak for ALL cyclists. While some of us -- personally -- may not yet be comfortable with scooter style e-bikes on our park trails, and a few may not be entirely comfortable with them in bike lanes, as a member, the bike union has to be respectful and responsive to your needs.
E-bikes are new; the province has created a pilot period to get an idea of what will work and what might not. Everyone has some learning to do. Not everything is likely to work in the first iteration, some tweaking may be required.
Anything new is scary, and people (including myself) grumble and complain about changes. That, and every onece in a while I have to reminded how lucky I am to have my youth and my health, and that we need to find ways accomodate those who don't.
My mind is changing.... Slowly. We'll figure out how/where e-bikes (scooter style or other) fit in, and we'll figure out how to get along.
But we need to hear from all sides to make this a worthwhile discussion. And the best way is to join the bike union, and to get involved.
BTW, I'm looking forward to seeing out on the roads of South Etobicoke as I live in Mimico!
Maryann (not verified)
Joining the bike union
Sat, 07/26/2008 - 12:35Until I read the article in the NOW magazine, I didn't know there was such a thing as a bike union! And it wouldn't have occurred to to me to join after Yvonne's comment. Now that I know, I have taken a basic membership and I may upgrade when the decision regarding e-bikes is made known by the province. Thank you for suggesting I participate, Anthony.
For me, biking has been primarily a form of eco-transportation, not a sport. I recently found out about the Cyclometer, and now the union! Leaps and bounds, people, since April. Yes, my bike is the scooter type e-bike. I was advised that because I am heavier, the smaller types would not work well for me. It has pedals, mirrors, lights, signals, ABS (my brakes work better than my brakes worked on my Raleigh) and I agree that it appears wider than a pedal bike, but I have measured and it is not. Someone mentioned that these bikes can be modified to go faster. That is true, but I have been warned that my warranty is gone if I do this. And yes, there will probably be some riders who do this. My suggestion is that the police confiscate any bike that doesn't conform to the standard. It doesn't matter what form of transport you use; there is always going to be some twits doing what they are not supposed to do.
Incidentally, yesterday morning, an e-biker went through the stop signs by Ontario Place, and I called her out on it. It may not be my place, but I don't want things like that to speak for all e-bikers, so I will continue to make it my business.
My comment about 'using your discretion' with speed limits and stop signs on the trail... if you don't like the law, change it, don't break it. There is obviously a reason why those things have been set up. Ask yourself how likely you would be to go through a stop sign in a car, even at a deserted intersection; if you would, I wouldn't trust you no matter what your mode of transport is.
When I was a kid, we were forced to take a bike course in grade school and drivers ed in high school. Let's try to get these things initiated in the school systems again. Especially now, when the bike culture is picking up. Knowing the rules of the road is part of being a good citizen, and isn't that what we really want to accomplish with our children.
Even though I make my living as a business systems analyst, this is the first blog I have ever entered into. Thanks for the feedback. And thanks again, Anthony for suggesting I join the union. The only union I have ever been a part of was the musicians union many years ago, so I am not really sure how this works, but I'm sure you will all help me get started.
anthony
An e-bike discussion
Sat, 07/26/2008 - 02:22Because I'm invloved on the board of the Bike Union, my wife sent me this:
So I forwarded this to Yvonne who replied directly to Jenny with:
It pleased, and surprised, my wife that she got a response direct from Yvonne. She was also happy with the answer.
The point here is not that we don't want them, but that the scooter style electric vehicles don't seem to fit in with what we already know. Perhaps we'll get used to this, or perhaps we'll find another space for those machines. I don't know what the answer will be -- or what it should be. i just know that I have to start looking at something new, get over my own knee-jerk reaction to it, figure out what the merits and limits of this are, and what it means. The best way is to listen to people who actually use one (or else get one myself and use it, which I'm not going to do at this point) in order to understand the perspective from the other side as well.
I hope that these comments will encourage other e-bike and e-scooter owners to share their stories because we need to learn more about these machines, and about the people who use them. It is my hope that this will lead to a better understanding for everyone.
Maryann King (not verified)
E-bike - joining the cyclists union
Wed, 08/20/2008 - 09:54Well, as soon as I heard about you guys, I went on line and joined the union, since Anthony suggested I do so. I am still waiting for a response of any kind. I have not received a card as was indicated.
Is this a hint, folks? Even if you were busy, it would be nice to have an acknowledgement that it would be forthcoming.
anthony
Once a month
Wed, 08/20/2008 - 10:26I assure you that the union is not ignoring you.
Member mail outs are queued and are mailed in batches once a month. You may need to wait up to six weeks to get your membership package mailed to you.
There is done this way for several reasons, but this is the best balance we have found for now.
Andrew Thomson
don't worry your membership
Sat, 08/23/2008 - 16:20don't worry your membership card will come with your stickers and stuff a good spot for the stickers is on the bike helmet and until they come your still a member and welcome ot the toronto cyclists union
Theodore (not verified)
Be safe, share the road
Sat, 07/26/2008 - 02:28It says in the motorcycle rider's handbook before you get your M1 that the act of lane splitting breaks down the respect on the road between cars and motorcycles.
Similarly not obeying the rules of the road destroys any appeal to share the road for motorists and cyclists.
On the paths we should all just use your discretion. If there is no one there go as fast as you want, if there is maybe think a bit.
Re: E-bikes, the more transportation options that are not SUVs that are out there the better. Space is for everyone, we have to learn that and value every commuting option equally.
Try keeping a moped out of the bike lanes in Holland...There is just no reason, lets use our brains, be safe, and share the road.
The EnigManiac
Let's ask this fundamental question
Sat, 07/26/2008 - 02:56Of the E-bike users amongst us, how often do you pedal your e-bike? Be honest now.
I, personally, really value scooters and e-bikes and I am happy to share the road with them more than our common enemy; motorists, but they are not bicycles. so the answers to the above question may well determine whether one is a human-powered (with some assistance) cyclist or a primarily motor-powered scooterist and, therefore, a para-motorist..
An Officer and ... (not verified)
Motorists are not our enemy,
Sun, 07/27/2008 - 13:15Motorists are not our enemy, nor are bicycles or e-bikes or e-scooters. Skateboarders, Rollerbladers and Pedestrians are not our enemy either.
The question raised is how often e-bikes are pedalled. The Ministry went out of their way to change the one word in the Pilot Program's Amendment from "primarily" to "capable" of being propelled by muscular power. This one word changed the law whether the bike had to be pedalled... or not at all. It can still be considered a bicycle whether it is pedalled or not, by definition and by law. Just the word bicycle itself does not dictate manual pedalling is required. A cycle is a "rotation" and "bi" referring to the number of wheels. It is a persons own interpretation of the word that paints the picture in their own mind of what it is or if it should be allowed.
Someone with authority and knowledge of the existance of this style of transportation changed the law with a necessary vote due to due diligence. I suspect that this was because of the awareness of the product in other parts of the world. There were apparently many studies and pilot programs in other parts of the world before Ontario even considered a pilot.
E-Bikes are by no means new, we have just be sheltered from the product for too long.
Before we judge too quicky, I say accept and allow this wonderful alternative into our province and let history decide whether they have a place or not. I know from sources over seas that e-bikes of both styles are an accepted alternative and offer it's citizens an inexpensive and clean transportation to those who either cannot afford a car or choose this vehicle to augment their use of one.
My own interest in a scooter style e-bike would be for transportation to and from work which is 10 km each way. My activity at work is very physical and active and I do not require a bicycle as my exercise for the day. If I was an accountant or sitting at a desk all day or standing in one spot, I would probably welcome the ride to and from work on a bicycle.
Darren_S
E-Bike etiquette
Sat, 07/26/2008 - 14:44I remember years ago when training to ride in groups, either touring or racing, one thing that was drilled into us is that when you get off your saddle (ie climbing hills, sprinting), give a little push before you do. The act of getting off your saddle slows the bike down, slightly, but sometimes enough to send your rear tire back into the cyclist tailing you.
While we do not ride in such close quarters commuting I have had several E-bikers try to mix it up with me. Not a problem but please remember, I have to use muscle power to propel, you simply need to throw a switch. If we are close passing a car or some other obstacle you can unintentionally overtake and we can collide.
Jim W. (not verified)
Let me get this
Sun, 07/27/2008 - 10:52Let me get this straight....It is okay to pedal on a bike path at 12 km per hour...but it is not okay to go the same 12 km per hour with a battery....Every negative comment people say about E-Bikes can be said for regular bicycles...They go too fast! What if they hit someone! They weave in and out of traffic...They don't stop at stop signs...they shouldn't be allowed in parks where there are kids..they shouldn't be allowed on paths with pedestrians...they should be licenced and only allowed on roads. They should have insurance.....E-Bikes are a great form of transportation for people who do not want or can't pedal. They are a great substitute for automobiles for certain commutes...Why can't people share the paths....My Dad rides my e-bike to the store and around the neighborhood. There is a two kilometre path into town that keeps him off the busy streets...He rides probably 8km per hour down the path. Maybe not all paths are conducive to e-bikes, but some are...same as bikes...I say lets get along...It is just as easy to ride wrecklass on a bicycle as it is an e-bike....both are potentially dangerous and both should be allowed to ride on MUP. It is up to the riders judgement on speed.
The EnigManiac
Jim, it is not about speed,
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 08:26Jim, it is not about speed, recklessness or dangerous riding. It is about the difference between riding and driving. When one is on a scooter-style e-bike, they are much closer to being a motorcyclist than a cyclist and, therefore, they are driving and should not be in bike lanes. They are slow-speed motorcycles, after all and motor vehicles are prohibited in bike lanes. If an e-bike rider is afraid of busy roads then perhaps they need to choose alternate routes or learn to adapt to the road and traffic conditions. Maybe an e-bike isn't the best choice for them if the roads are dangerous for a slow-moving vehicle. Ultimately, they have the right to ride on any standard road, as every vehicle does, and need to exert their privilege. But if we accept e-bikes driving in bike lanes then gas-powered scooters will soon join them and then mopeds and motorcycles and, pretty soon, bike lanes are rendered pointless.
Jim W (not verified)
Power Assisted Bicycles
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 09:06Jim
My scooter style e-bike falls under the jurisdiction of power assisted bicycles which by law are to be treated the same as bicycles. The are not slow speed motorcyles or limited speed motorcyles, no more than you are when you are "coasting" without pedalling...The law does not and will not allow gas powered vehicles on the bike lanes let alone motorcyles and mopeds. That is rediculous. They have the law in place already based on maximum speed and motor output. Coasting at 30 km per hour or pedalling at 30 km per hour or 'assisted" at 30 km per hour is the same thing. It is not up to you or anyone like you to accept e-bikes into the bike lanes...there goes that "elitess" attitude people are talking about...bike lanes are for bikes and an e-bike is a bike. The law accepts them why don't you?
Jarbeau (not verified)
My E-Bike
Sun, 07/27/2008 - 17:49I originally purchased a scooter style electric bicycle as an after hours vehicle for touring around the neighborhood and going to the corner store. In other words, really as a toy.
I found however my trips were getting longer as I became more comfortable riding in traffic.
Months later, and only on the nice days, I have taken my bike back and forth to work. (14 km each way) While it takes me three times longer to get to work I am actually enjoying the trip.
I leave for work when the birds start chirping and the sun is just rising and it is an incredible way to start the day. When I first made the purchase I questioned the price for a toy, but since then have realized it is truly one of my favourite purchases in a long long time. I bought one that is called The Commuter but never dreamed that would be it;s purpose. I am reading alot of negativity from cyclists and do not quite understand their concerns. I have not experienced any in my travels, but then again I seem to get along well with everybody I meet.
BC Resident (not verified)
First Wave
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 07:56When E-Bikes first arrived in British Columbia years ago, there were also those that had negative comments on their arrival. Whether they were police or city officials or just citizens.
Eventually the comments died out and the product lived on...You will have to endure the same thing in Ontario. Do not feed into the negativity....Let them vent, and they will soon go away.
While I do not own an e-bike, I see them on a daily basis and much prefer them to cars. I tend to smile at people on bicycles and e-bikes, or at least ackowledge their existance as they are passing by. In a car, behind glass people are less "human". If I were to get an e-bike, I would most certainly go for the scooter style e-bike. They look more comfortable and from talking with people overall they are happy with them.
Downtown Toronto (not verified)
Ride in Peace
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 08:41I admit to owning a scooter style e-bike..I use it back and forth to work, after hours and on the weekends. I have racked up over 4000 km on my bike since I made the purchase last year.
I cannot tell you how much I enjoy riding it. I do not seem to pose a danger to pedestrians or cylists and certainly not to cars. I can stop on a dime and I just like on a bicycle, I am very aware of my surroundings. I produce no emissions and I am whisper quiet as I am rolling along. I pass cyclists and they pass me. I enjoy using the bike paths but feel quite confident on the roads as well. I learned about e-bikes in British Columbia many years ago and was shocked to find out how long they had them before us. I contacted the Ministry of Transportation and asked when we would have them, and the person I was speaking to had no idea what I was talking about. She kept calling it a moped and I kept correcting her. I asked to speak to someone else and when I finally did they had no idea what I was talking about either. Here it is a year and a half later and people still ask my why no licence? Ontario is special....LOL
Luke Siragusa
Re: My E-Bike
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 08:52Jarbeau:
Jarbeau, try the trips by bicycle, it's even better. ;-)
Jarbeau (not verified)
Health Issue
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 09:10If I could I would. I did it for 40 years..Pedal as long as you can my friend.
One day maybe you will appreciate this vehicle.
Luke Siragusa
Re: Jim, it is not about speed.
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 09:04The Enigmaniac:
Ironic that stance. Substitute 'bicycle' for 'ebike' and it perfectly echoes the maxims of bike lane opponents be they cyclists or not.
The EnigManiac
Indeed
Tue, 07/29/2008 - 08:25I can't agree more, Luke, and that is why I wrote what I wrote, particularly for those who have responded that they use MUPs and bike lanes because riding (driving) on the street feels dangerous for them. Most experienced cyclists have learned to exert their privilege on the road while also avoiding some routes that are, by their nature and design, uncomfortably dangerous. E-bikers are no different. They are allowed on the road, they belong on the road and they need to be comfortable on the road. That comes with time and experience.
When they made their decision to buy and use an ebike, they had to consider where and when they would use their bikes. If they thought they could ride any old place they wanted to, I'm afraid they were naive, short-sighted or simply not thorough in their estimations.
Kevin Love (not verified)
I'm not as young as I used to be...
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 10:47...And after I had major surgery last year I got two e-bikes. A scooter-style one for around Toronto and one that "looks like" a conventional bicycle (pedelectric) so I could take it onto the GO train.
I love both bicycles. As I continue to recover from the operation I am using the pedelectric one more and more. This is because it allows me to put in as much human power as I feel comfortable doing.
I've got a feeling that many of the bicycle purists here are somewhat less than half my age and kind of believe that they will stay the way they are forever. I know because I used to be just the same when I was that age. Enjoy it while it lasts!
AnnieD
Equally vulnerable
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 14:22Pedaling doesn't make any difference when it comes to how vulnerable those of us not enclosed in metal boxes are in collisions with cars, trucks and buses, and I would think this is the primary reason for bike lanes. To those who think that e-bikes should stay out of bikelanes because their riders don't pedal, do you also think that wheelchairs should stay off sidewalks because their users don't walk???
Lately, I've been thinking that a major problem we face is the high variability of speeds among cyclists. Physical fitness isn't a factor when driving. But cyclists, wow! Some of them putter along so slowly I could keep up with them on foot, while others fly past me on bikes that look as light as air.
The past couple of weeks I've had to take the bike lane on College heading West and what a hair-raising, frustrating experience (so much for the theory that bike lanes make us safer). Riding on the edge to stay out of the door zone with bumper to bumper traffic flying by to my left and cars blocking the lane as they get in and out of parking spaces, it's a crazy game of leapfrog the whole way across.
The frustration that some people have expressed with e-bikes in bike lanes probably reflects an overall frustration with the crowding in bike lanes. But the solution isn't to kick anyone out: the solution is to have wide enough bike lanes to accomodate everyone, with room to pass safely. And the more people out there pressuring the city for this to happen, the better.
tanya
32 km an hour
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 15:07Why not just slow down all city traffic to 32 km/h, then there would be less need for special lanes. How to do this effectively is of course subject of debate. But what about the idea in general if we could do this - would it be desirable? I think so. (emergency vehicles with flashers the only exemptions) And hopefully with the streets being less scary with less speed, more people will take to smaller footprint vehicles like bikes and e-bikes.
vic
MTO's E-Bike page
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 15:53Some interesting quotes from the MTO's "Power-Assisted/Electric Bicycles" page:
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/emerging/index.html#power
and....
Lastly....has anyone else noticed that all of those Eco-Cab drivers are flaunting the E-bike laws by not wearing a helmet?
Anonymous (not verified)
If you look at the amendment
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 18:55If you look at the amendment the "primarily" has been changed to "capable of".
But nice try...back to law school...LOL
vic
If you look at the amendment
Tue, 07/29/2008 - 09:35I wasn't suggesting that scooter style e-bikes are illegal. I was just pointing out that even the MTO thinks that the scooters are contrary to the initial intent of this pilot project.
The whole e-bike pilot project was promoted as a way to get more people cycling longer distances etc...etc... using regular bikes with power assist. But now some people are saying that up to 90% of e-bikes are these scooter-style bikes...totally different from what we were told would be the norm.
I'm not even sure why people prefer the scooters over the "normal" e-bikes anyway. The scooters have useless pedals. A normal electric-assist bike can go much faster in some cases when you can pedal faster than 32km/h without the motor going. Longer battery life with more pedal input too, an less chance of being "stuck" somewhere when your battery decides to crap out or the engine dies. A normal bike is easier to outfit with a wide range of cargo carrying options (racks, panniers, baskets, trailers, etc.), versus those cute little plastic buckets on the scooters. Also much easier to store and transport a normal e-bike.... So really, I just don't get the appeal of the scooters.
In any case, I support the the use of E-bikes, and even the scooter style ones. They don't bother me. I signed petitions to allow this pilot project to happen several years ago, when groups like the Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa were working on it.
Heck...when I get older or start having difficulty doing some of the transportational riding that I do, I might opt for a power-assisted bike at some point. I'd rather get a bit of a power boost than have to rely on public transit. But I'd probably choose something more like a BionX addition to a regular bike.
I already share the roads with other cyclists, motorists, truck drivers, etc..etc... I don't mind having E-bikes in the mix. I'd rather have more e-bikes than more cars any day. I do, however, wish that more people would give actual human power a try.
Cheers,
Vic
Luke Siragusa
Big is not so beautiful
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 17:36There is one aspect of ebikes, specifically the scooter models, that's been overlooked and is worrisome to me: it's their weight. I don't know the typical weight range of the scooters but am guessing they're in the 100 LB range (please post e-scooterers).
My concerns revolve around how, if it all, the extra mass will translate into greater injury and damage to a cyclist during an accident. Scooters' fairings will mitigate harm to their riders, but cyclists remain exposed as ever; to them, a mishap with an e-scooter is no different than with a Vespa or motorcycle, which, of course, dedicated bike lanes are intended in part to deter.
The physics of collisions is oblivious to the carbon footprint of the concerned vehicles, the only relevant factors are mass and speed. The alleged powers presiding over the e-scooter/-bike experiment have rightly insisted on capping the wattage of e-twoWheelers. If they've not placed a limit on weight it should be seriously considered.
Because if e-scooters and cyclists are meant to inhabit the same road space, you can bet that when that mandate is taken too seriously and an overly intimate encounter ensues between the two, vulnerable cyclists will definitely come out on the losing end of the F = ma equation.
Jimmy Boy (not verified)
Big is not so Beautiful
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 19:25Luke
Speed X Weight is an issue with many things. Cars, Bicycles, Skateboarders, Roller Bladers
Runners.
Everyday someone is either hurt or killed on a bicycle...What should we do about it? Licence them? Insure them? Or just take them off the road? Or should we just try to be more careful?
Not to mention helmets are optional if the rider is over 18. Now that is crazy!
Considering there are approximately over 2000 scooter style e-bikes on the roads in Ontario, I certainly do not read about or hear about a lot of accident stories. I am sure some exist, but if they were rampant and often, we would know. BC would have dismissed them 5 years ago if they were really really dangerous. ..I say...Let them be...they have track record in other parts of the world and Canada. I have ordered one and am picking it up in a couple of days...I will wear a helmet as the law depicts. I suggest lets focus some of this attention not on e-bikes but back onto cyclists themselves...Helmets should be mandatory! People who ride on sidewalks should be ticketed! Disobeying traffic lights and stop signs should seriously enforced. Speed control in parks and M.U.P. Too many people are getting hurt on them...lets insure and licence them...there how do you guys like it?
Spencer and Mary (not verified)
e-bikers
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 19:46As cyclists, I do not have a problem with people who choose to ride an electric bike or scooter. I meet many people on my travels, on and off bike paths and they seem to blend in nicely. Our beef is still and probably always will be with motorists. Leave the e-bikers alone and let us focus on what is a real threat....the polluters.
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